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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Orisha91 said:
Oh wait a minute. If we have to be in the village, and probably under watch from Asuma, isn't FOOM effectively dead?
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Are we still in the "train our minds" part of FOOM? I'm not up to what's happening in the meta I just trust the training plan makers they look like they know what they're doing pretty well. If we are then no worries we can do this at home behind an anti-Hyūga seal. If we aren't that just means we'll go to some less-used training grounds or go on till'n'fills for training, doesn't it?
 
Rafin said:
I like several parts of your plan but I don't think testing in the same place is a good idea. Right now it is officially considered a sealing failure. Doing it again there would make the likelihood that people deduce it isn't much bigger. I also don't think that now is the time to propose weird experiments with EM. Nor do I get why we would want to do that in the first place.
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Thank you. Unfortunately, not planning to do any edits. Doing it in the same place does not work if we wait until tomorrow. It would have to be shortly after the first effect ends so winds can calm down, but before weather clears up too much. Should look like one long storm. Would have been better to specify not rushing for the experiments. Their goal is to convince Asuma EM is not unique. Reconsider drastic measures for nonproliferation. Hard to accept the reality that chakra is better than physics at cooling. Someone somewhere doomed to rediscover this as chemistry knowledge improves. The sky is like an avalanche or forest full of dry wood waiting for a spark and we want to recruit Asuma to prevent wild fires.

Long term solutions are hard. Self propagating seal effect that uses ambient chakra to resist EM? Counter seal to save our ability to use it?
 
[x] Action Plan: An Alternative to Genocide
  • Visit Shikamaru.
    • Do you think the following is viable, and if so, do you think we can persuade Asuma to go for it?
    • Instead of genociding Isan, cut them in.
    • Make them aware of the nuke, and get them to agree to total OPSEC.
    • Use our position of "we have the nuke and you don't yet, and our BATNA is killing you all right now" to force them to agree to a set of Thinker-designed terms intended to bind Leaf and Isan closer together than any villages have ever been allied before.
    • Use our position of "we could have killed you immediately and been safe, but we're choosing to reach out to you because we don't want you all to die" as a show of good faith to make it stick.
    • If Shikamaru agrees, make the pitch to Asuma.
  • Go on Asuma's mission.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
We need to have a talk with Akane once she's put herself back together a little bit where we lay out very clearly that our intention is to speedrun Jiraiya's resurrection, then speedrun S-rank, then shatter the world and put it back together in a way that isn't so broken. We can explain how these additional resources and FOOM mean that we can do so all the quicker, how the defeat of the Dragons can unite the Paths and push us further towards our goals, and how this is not some pie-in-the-sky bullshit, it's legitimately possible.

And then we swear to her that we will do so before EM is ever, ever deployed, that we will keep safe the world and all its people. And then we ask her to join us.

She isn't in a place to hear that right now, though. We can have the talk above standing over some anonymous patch of ocean away from the prying ears of the ANBU. So this might help, and @Velorien might have fun writing it: I think there's room for some Badass Creed moments.

[X] Action Plan: Heart to Heart
Word count: <300
  • Asuma
    • Tone:
      • Not making threats, policy suggestions, threatening antagonism if Asuma doesn't do as we ask.
      • Generally, staying in our lane.
    • Request a private moment - Akane waits outside/returns home.
    • We want to discuss Akane's well-being. Forgive us if we take a moment to set the groundwork.
    • Destroying that Rock village almost broke Akane. She would never disobey orders, but it did.
    • Causing mass death of relatively innocent people goes beyond agony for her.
      • Civilians are civilians - they have no choices and Fire civilians are Fire civilians due to luck, not inherent superiority.
        • She's seen us - former Mist nin - adopt the Will of Fire. (Subtext: ninja also have little choice where they're born etc.) She understands that the Will of Fire can burn in all hearts, and that it's a tragedy whenever someone perishes without having had a chance to have that fire lit.
      • Tone: Akane values all life because of her devotion to the Will of Fire.
    • We understand that you must protect the Will of Fire and the people who carry it as your first priority.
    • But we know that you, too, have seen that every person can have the Will of Fire kindled in them.
      • The Will of Fire is the only path forward. It's what's behind AMITY. It's what saved the world from Pain.
      • It, and nothing else, is what brings us closer and closer to a good world. It's why Leaf is so special. Uplift is a facet of the Will of Fire. All good things are.
    • We are legitimately worried for her safety and sanity.
      • Your communicating those shared beliefs to her would, in our opinion, help her.
    • We apologize, again, for our foolishness.
    • Thank him for his time and consideration.
  • Go home. Obey Asuma's orders. Offer Akane comfort and space.
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This plan in it's current form does absolutely nothing aside from offer Akane vague generic comfort and support.

If you want to give a speech to Akane you need to be more specific then this
 
MadScientist said:
[x] Action Plan: An Alternative to Genocide
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Point of information: We don't know that Shikamaru has been informed of anything yet, let alone Isan's role in this:
Paperclipped said:
Lord Seventh has no intentions to extend this OPSEC compartment any further, with the possible exception of sharing limited information with Lord Nara in order to assess the extent of the risk of external OPSEC breach and determine policies that might lessen that risk.
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MadScientist said:
[x] Action Plan: An Alternative to Genocide
  • Visit Shikamaru.
    • Do you think the following is viable, and if so, do you think we can persuade Asuma to go for it?
    • Instead of genociding Isan, cut them in.
    • Make them aware of the nuke, and get them to agree to total OPSEC.
    • Use our position of "we have the nuke and you don't yet, and our BATNA is killing you all right now" to force them to agree to a set of Thinker-designed terms intended to bind Leaf and Isan closer together than any villages have ever been allied before.
    • Use our position of "we could have killed you immediately and been safe, but we're choosing to reach out to you because we don't want you all to die" as a show of good faith to make it stick.
    • If Shikamaru agrees, make the pitch to Asuma.
  • Go on Asuma's mission.
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There are better, far less risky alternatives to genocide then clue'ing the Isanese into the fact that they have access to nukes.

Like the proposed plan to have Asuma Technique Hack a "improved" version of EM that allows for more precise temperature control while not being able to induce a EM nuke.

And then have Asuma gift this "improved" version to Isan so that the old version with nuke potential is soon thought of as a old obsolete jutsu that nobody really cares about or cares to learn.
 
There's a number of options to deal with Isan without genocide, up to and including telling Takahashi that all of his village is going to be mind-wiped and he can either cooperate or die.
 
RandomOTP said:
Upside: If Asuma doesn't decide to kill his Golden Goose, we should easily be able to convince him to allow Hazou to learn biosealing.
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Shrooms said:
Hey if we're just going to be asking for more stuff might as well add TH training to the list
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If you want to make such requests, feel free to put them in your plan.

coldcutconvict said:
Could he have a different motive?
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Akane can tell you that her experience during the mindscan seemed to mostly focus on her memories of Elemental Mastery, especially when she was using it around other people. HDK whether the recollection of the target of a mindscan is an accurate indicator of what was dug up during that mindscan.
coldcutconvict said:
Has this Owl shown up before?
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Not to my recollection.
coldcutconvict said:
Do the Aburame usually go first in meetings?
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Ah, perhaps that does happen. They're a neutral voice without a clear political agenda, so I suppose it's easy to lean on them for context-setting.
coldcutconvict said:
No heads up? Not the kind of thing to let go without compensation. Worth trading behind the scenes benefits for Asuma to publicly tie his reputation to ours. Not so easy to take his ball home if it makes others in his favor question the weight of his word.
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I don't get what you're trying to say here.

Anyways, thanks for the reaction post! Take +1 XP to a PC of your choice, chosen by 1d4 if you don't pick within 24 hours.
 
[x] Action Plan: Mutually Assured Prosperity
  • Visit Asuma.
    • Sir, we have an alternate proposal for plugging the OPSEC leak: instead of genociding Isan, cut them in.
    • Make them aware of the nuke, and get them to agree to total OPSEC.
    • Use our position of "we have the nuke and you don't yet, and our BATNA is killing you all right now" to force them to agree to a set of Thinker-designed (Nara/Ami collab) terms intended to bind Leaf and Isan closer together than any villages have ever been allied before.
      • If Isan fails to agree to the alliance, they die.
      • If Isan looks like they're trying to wriggle out of this, they die.
      • If Isan does not allow systems be put in place to make the deep interconnection with Leaf (details tbd by leaf thinkers) inevitable, they die.
      • If Isan develops the nuke and destroys Leaf in a no-warning attack, then our EM-ANBU stationed far from Leaf retaliates and they die.
      • All paths except total cooperation result in Isan's genocide, even once they have the nuke.
    • Use our position of "we could have killed you immediately and been safe, but we're choosing to reach out to you because we don't want you all to die" as a show of good faith to make it stick.
      • Set up the incentives of the alliance such that Isan won't want or try to not be allied with us. Fair terms, and deep interconnection to make Leaf and Isan inextricable and attempts at extrication undesirable.
      • Together we're more powerful and have greater influence. Guarantees that at least one region will absolutely never declare war on us (not true if we destroy Isan, because whoever else snatches the land up if we do might be an enemy).
    • We acknowledge that this may very well be unviable, but we feel it would be irresponsible not to check with you in case it is possible to pull it off.
    • And on a personal note… we would rather try to follow Hashirama's path of uniting rival polities together into a peaceful community.
    • [Note to QMs: In plainer english, the idea is "Isan don't have nukes yet. We do. Use our first mover advantage to force them to accept a values handshake on threat of instant annihilation the second our Thinkers think they aren't cooperating.]
  • Backup suggestions:
    • TH EM to make a superior-for-utility version that can't be used as a nuke. Gift it to them, and allow the nuke-capable version to quietly go extinct in Isan.
    • Threat of nuking them to force them to accept mindwipe and destruction of jutsu scrolls.
  • Go on Asuma's mission.
 
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@Paperclipped is there anything in my plan that leaps out to Hazou as unworkable?

MadScientist said:
[x] Action Plan: Mutually Assured Prosperity
  • Visit Asuma.
    • Sir, we have an alternate proposal for plugging the OPSEC leak: instead of genociding Isan, cut them in.
    • Make them aware of the nuke, and get them to agree to total OPSEC.
    • Use our position of "we have the nuke and you don't yet, and our BATNA is killing you all right now" to force them to agree to a set of Thinker-designed (Nara/Ami collab) terms intended to bind Leaf and Isan closer together than any villages have ever been allied before.
      • If Isan fails to agree to the alliance, they die.
      • If Isan looks like they're trying to wriggle out of this, they die.
      • If Isan does not allow systems be put in place to make the deep interconnection with Leaf (details tbd by leaf thinkers) inevitable, they die.
      • If Isan develops the nuke and destroys Leaf in a no-warning attack, then our EM-ANBU stationed far from Leaf retaliates and they die.
      • All paths except total cooperation result in Isan's genocide, even once they have the nuke.
    • Use our position of "we could have killed you immediately and been safe, but we're choosing to reach out to you because we don't want you all to die" as a show of good faith to make it stick.
      • Set up the incentives of the alliance such that Isan won't want or try to not be allied with us. Fair terms, and deep interconnection to make Leaf and Isan inextricable and attempts at extrication undesirable.
      • Together we're more powerful and have greater influence. Guarantees that at least one region will absolutely never declare war on us (not true if we destroy Isan, because whoever else snatches the land up if we do might be an enemy).
    • We acknowledge that this may very well be unviable, but we feel it would be irresponsible not to check with you in case it is possible to pull it off.
    • And on a personal note… we would rather try to follow Hashirama's path of uniting rival polities together into a peaceful community.
    • [Note to QMs: In plainer english, the idea is "Isan don't have nukes yet. We do. Use our first mover advantage to force them to accept a values handshake on threat of instant annihilation the second our Thinkers think they aren't cooperating.]
  • Backup suggestions:
    • TH EM to make a superior-for-utility version that can't be used as a nuke. Gift it to them, and allow the nuke-capable version to quietly go extinct in Isan.
    • Threat of nuking them to force them to accept mindwipe and destruction of jutsu scrolls.
  • Go on Asuma's mission.
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MadScientist said:
[x] Action Plan: Mutually Assured Prosperity
  • Visit Asuma.
    • Sir, we have an alternate proposal for plugging the OPSEC leak: instead of genociding Isan, cut them in.
    • Make them aware of the nuke, and get them to agree to total OPSEC.
    • Use our position of "we have the nuke and you don't yet, and our BATNA is killing you all right now" to force them to agree to a set of Thinker-designed (Nara/Ami collab) terms intended to bind Leaf and Isan closer together than any villages have ever been allied before.
      • If Isan fails to agree to the alliance, they die.
      • If Isan looks like they're trying to wriggle out of this, they die.
      • If Isan develops the nuke and destroys Leaf in a no-warning attack, then our EM-ANBU stationed far from Leaf retaliates and they die.
      • All paths except total cooperation result in Isan's genocide, even once they have the nuke.
    • Use our position of "we could have killed you immediately and been safe, but we're choosing to reach out to you because we don't want you all to die" as a show of good faith to make it stick.
      • Set up the incentives of the alliance such that Isan won't want or try to not be allied with us. Fair terms, and deep interconnection to make Leaf and Isan inextricable and attempts at extrication undesirable.
      • Together we're more powerful and have greater influence. Guarantees that at least one region will absolutely never declare war on us (not true if we destroy Isan, because whoever else snatches the land up if we do might be an enemy).
    • We acknowledge that this may very well be unviable, but we feel it would be irresponsible not to check with you in case it is possible to pull it off.
    • And on a personal note… we would rather try to follow Hashirama's path of uniting rival polities together into a peaceful community.
  • Backup suggestions:
    • TH EM to make a superior-for-utility version that can't be used as a nuke. Gift it to them, and allow the nuke-capable version to quietly go extinct in Isan.
    • Threat of nuking them to force them to accept mindwipe and destruction of jutsu scrolls.
  • Go on Asuma's mission.
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Alternatively a plan that doesn't involve first suggesting to vastly expand the amount of people clued into the existance of the EM Nuke (Expanding it to non-leaf ninja who have yet to develop much of any OpSec protocols to keep secrets from outsiders at that) in a way that would in my view be certain to lower Hazou's credibility in Asuma's eyes for suggesting something like this.

I propose as a alternative:


[x] Action Plan: Operation Obsolete Mastery


  • Visit Asuma
    • Sir, we have an alternate proposal for plugging the OPSEC leak: instead of genociding Isan, instead TH EM into a superior-for-utillity (think more precise climate control) version that can't be used as a nuke, and then gift this "improved" version of EM to the Isanese as a show of friendship, all so that the old "obsolete" version will quietly go extinct in Isan.
  • Go home. Obey Asuma's orders. Offer Akane comfort and space.
  • Go on Asuma's mission tommorow/or the day after as instructed.
    • try to troubleshoot any issues that arise on-site, if it doesn't work immediately then maybe it isn't cold enough?
 
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Oneiros said:
I actually did consider that possibility which if you'll bother to read the second half of that sentence you would see an alternative. I'd appreciate not being treated like an idiot for no reason in the future
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I apologize for what I said there. It didn't have any value and wasn't nice either.

That said, I reread your comment and I still don't see how anything you say proposes an alternative to Enma screwing us over as hard as he possibly can.

Akane meets Enma. Enma asks what happened to Asuma. Enma verifies Akane's claims. Enma calculates whether he can absolutely ruin us through some subterfuge or whether killing Akane on the spot the next time she reverse summons is the better option.

How does asking him for the Squirrel scroll avoid any of that?

MadScientist said:
[x] Action Plan: Mutually Assured Prosperity
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People often don't handle being placed with their backs to the wall and having their sovereignty trampled on rationally. And Isan doesn't run on pure rationality either. So all this does is warn them that Leaf is planning on killing them all should certain conditions be met. And, depending on the information given to them, they then proceed to disperse EM users as missing nin in order to ensure second strike revenge capacity.

For this to work not only does Takahashi need to be wiser and saner than Asuma, but also Asuma himself must be willing to risk everything in the hopes that Takahashi is wiser and saner than himself. And I don't see Asuma doing that.
 
Rafin said:
How does asking him for the Squirrel scroll avoid any of that?
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We go to the lake people and negotiate a trade. We give them the monkey scroll after they help us find the Squirrel Scroll. I would have suggested just that but Ruri becoming the Condor Summoner after Leaf murdered the previous summoner suggest their might be some latitude
 
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Shrooms said:
Now we just need to figure out how Hazou and Akane can kill Asuma and 3 ANBU jonin 🤔
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Elite jōnin Asuma, and ANBU of unknown competences? That'sa tall order... You'd need some kind of superweapon... *cough*
Gev said:
Is it just me thinking that the shimura state thing is fabricated to make us relocate?
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Much easier to relocate the one descendant with some nominal compensation than to relocate an entire clan. This is clearly an order to move us in. To have more control on us, to protect us, to force us to blend in Leaf more... there are many reasons you'd want an important clan with a propensity for both disaster and high power to stay close and Asuma feels this is more secure for literally everyone. And frankly, it's also a good deal for us. Not only can we not refuse, even if we could without incurring the Hokage's wrath we just shouldn't. We just need remember, practice good infosec, remove all of our own traps, etc.
 
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Totally unrelated to the current discussion, I wonder if Hazō is going to be able to do some Fullmetal Alchemist style fighting once ES and sealing are high enough, and we've cracked 3D seals. Something like Hazō just putting his hands on the ground, crafting a directional explosive seal underneath it, and letting loose. Even better if we could do it at a distance. Maybe it's possible to combine 3D sealing and technique hacking to develop jutsu that can quickly shape a specific 3D seal at a distance?
 
CommunismWillWin said:
Totally unrelated to the current discussion, I wonder if Hazō is going to be able to do some Fullmetal Alchemist style fighting once ES and sealing are high enough, and we've cracked 3D seals. Something like Hazō just putting his hands on the ground, crafting a directional explosive seal underneath it, and letting loose. Even better if we could do it at a distance. Maybe it's possible to combine 3D sealing and technique hacking to develop jutsu that can quickly shape a specific 3D seal at a distance?
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That would be very high-rank, no? You'd need a single jutsu to create or shape stone at super-high speeds and with incredible precision, and then it should also take care of infusion. I'm not saying "impossible", that's the QM's job, but I'm saying "we already have a nuke we can control, do we really want one we can't?"
(Alternately, it has "die in your sleep of Watcher-related mysterious circumstances" written all over it)
 
Ok, you guy want diffuse the ishan nukes? We have an way.
Kei. More precisely kei getting an pagolin to tell them that the ishanese EM is Wrong, and the correct way to do the jutsu is the Technique hacked way. And that his god will forgive them if they start to use the appropriate technique.

Religious bigotry for the win.
 
MrRobot said:
Ok, you guy want diffuse the ishan nukes? We have an way.
Kei. More precisely kei getting an pagolin to tell them that the ishanese EM is Wrong, and the correct way to do the jutsu is the Technique hacked way. And that his god will forgive them if they start to use the appropriate technique.

Religious bigotry for the win.
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Not a option what with Kei still being banished from Isan I'm afraid.

Also you'd need S-rank level social stats to pull that off without it also looking super sus that you're trying to prevent people from using EM specifically.
 
I wonder if, mechanically, Depression would count as an Aspect, or a mental consequence?

Also: we should observe Akane and ensure she doesn't have any suicidal urges. EM Nuke is out of the bag (her death would just mean that Asuma buys it from Isan), but emotions aren't always logical, and Akane did just accidentally kill several hundred people at Hazou's command.
 
cog-nito said:
Not a option what with Kei still being banished from Isan I'm afraid.

Also you'd need S-rank level social stats to pull that off without it also looking super sus that you're trying to prevent people from using EM specifically.
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We don't need Kei for that herself we just need the word of an holly pagolin that fought besides their god to be horrified when Akane used this botched abomination of a copy to heat a room on mission.
 
genociding isan is not a great option for asuma. what with AMITY. and making cooperation more difficult for the existence of future existential threats.
 
Paperclipped said:
Akane can tell you that her experience during the mindscan seemed to mostly focus on her memories of Elemental Mastery, especially when she was using it around other people. HDK whether the recollection of the target of a mindscan is an accurate indicator of what was dug up during that mindscan.
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Uh, did she happen to go warming up small settlements last winter?
Paperclipped said:
I don't get what you're trying to say here.
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It does sound like insane ranting without a second pass. Second try. "Accident caused by a seal master" is carefully phrased to not be a lie. We did cause an accident with loss of life, damaged land and wasteful mustering of defenses. Asuma's coy hint hurts Gōketsu reputation publicly, perhaps deservedly. He did not need to warn Hazō he would do this and maybe genuine surprise helps sell the story slightly better.

But he could have chosen to warn us. He could have brainstormed plausible lies with us even if going with the truth was least risky in the end. Call it a failed tailed beast rebirth or a freak manifestation of the Mori Voice. Because EM is top secret, he cannot publicly reward us for surrendering it to him. Wariness. If he sees us as disposable, he will happily lend us vast borrowed resources while chipping away what cannot be repaired. House, fancy training and ninjutsu? They can be marvelous rewards, but he gets it all back when we die. If 6 clans come to kill us in the night to 'save Konoha from more sealing failures,' deniable assurances whispered in the right ears that Asuma cannot punish that level of unity without unacceptably hurting Fire? Bad PR is death. Too paranoid?

So Asuma's willingness to swap 'pure upside' goods for gifts than could damage him if he turns on us is indicative of our disposability in his eyes. Marrying a Sarutobi to an adopted Gōketsu helps. Granting formal, influential titles. Things that if he goes back on stain other allies' trust in him forever. Or if one of a kind fruits that granted extra bloodlines existed, giving us one would be a sign he values not tipping off his murderous designs at least that much. One Piece Quest?
Paperclipped said:
Anyways, thanks for the reaction post! Take +1 XP to a PC of your choice, chosen by 1d4 if you don't pick within 24 hours.
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Wasted if it goes to Akane or Hazo only for Asuma to cut loose ends. If they die, Kei will be the next character's main villain. Gotta go to the bro, Noburi.
 
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