Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Oneiros · Jun 13, 2022

I beg of everyone making plans check with Mari about if we should share our notes before just doing it.

[X] Action Plan: I Need a Favour
best plan cause not losing value for no reason

FaintlySorcerous · Jun 13, 2022

Oneiros said:
I beg of everyone making plans check with Mari about if we should share our notes before just doing it.

Every current plan plausibly has this to one degree or another. Do you have wording suggestions etc.?

Oneiros · Jun 13, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
Every current plan plausibly has this to one degree or another. Do you have wording suggestions etc.?

For ProperAttorney's plan would just cut out the line going to Asuma immediately after. That's probably mostly fine even without the edit.

for Faflecs I would change this

Sanity-check with Mari, to the extent OPSEC allows.
Update Asuma on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

to this

Sanity-check with Mari, to the extent OPSEC allows
If Mari thinks it's a good idea update Asuma on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

faflec · Jun 13, 2022

Edits made according to @FaintlySorcerous' suggestions. Still thinking about a good reason to talk to Naruto.

faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories
Word Count: ???

Flashback to the rest of the Yuno conversation. For reference:

Sanity-check with Noburi/Mari. Heal consequences. Include Noburi if he wants.

Tone: respectful, following Isanese customs.

Employ Isanese 'clan head requests favour of valued clanswoman' forms if they exist.

Fujisawa.

A key clan value is communication. What happened was the opposite of that.

This is not a dressing down. We know you feel bad. We know you'll apologize.

If you ever want support - advice, someone to talk to, whatever - let us know. We say this as a clan head and friend.

(Employ Isanese 'I mean this with utterly sincerity' forms if they exist.)

Relatedly: you need to stop assaulting people.

Not for Noburi, not for the clan. For her. If this continues, there will be consequences. We cannot lose her.

She's an incredible asset, but more importantly, family.

Please come to us. Whatever it is, we will help.

(Intensify previous Isanese forms if possible.)

The Biju Seal:

Revisit the notes with the corrected journals, and update our theories appropriately.

Sanity-check with Mari if we should present the plan to Asuma/talk to Naruto.

Asuma:

Update him on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

Request to confirm the theory by studying the seal on Naruto.

Naruto (if permitted):

Share Minato's notes and poetry.

Explain that's research notes mixed in.

We imagine he's already read them.

We have some memories of our Dad doing romantic things for Hana. The notes in the margin aren't the same, but if our Dad kept a journal or something, we know that we'd want to get to read through it and feel close to him.

Get caught up on what we've missed.

FaintlySorcerous · Jun 13, 2022

Oneiros said:
For ProperAttorney's plan would just cut out the line going to Asuma immediately after. That's probably mostly fine even without the edit.

Oneiros said:
for Faflecs I would change this

I'm really confused.

You initially asked people to check with Mari before we shared our notes (I'm assuming you mean Minato's decrypted notes and related material). I then pointed out that the sanity-checks, largely, exist.

You're now requesting that lines are cut (which is the opposite of adding a sanity-check...?) and saying that you'd like faf to make a change to his plan, without specifying what it is.

I think that the probability of your proposed changes going through skyrockets if you can provide exact changes to wording which are easy for the plan authors to implement. There are also the normal concerns about 'is your suggestion compatible with the core intention of the plan' (which I feel it isn't in the case of what I'm getting from your suggestion to PA, which is that you want to remove the part where we talk with Asuma, which feels core to the plan to me) but that's neither here nor there. The suggestion 'please expand your sanity check' seems reasonable, but I'm really unclear as to how you want it to be expanded and without that clarity, it's both unlikely to happen and probably frustrating for everyone involved.

faflec said:
Edits made according to @FaintlySorcerous' suggestions. Still thinking about a good reason to talk to Naruto.

I think it might be worth including a link to the original Yuno plan and/or clarifying that what you're including is a direct quote from that plan. Things like 'heal consequences' no longer make sense. We can also cut the parts about 'employ these forms if they exist' because Hazo confirmed that we have no way of knowing if they exist other than asking Yuno.

faflec said:
The Biju Seal:

Revisit the notes with the corrected journals, and update our theories appropriately.

Sanity-check with Mari if we should present the plan to Asuma/talk to Naruto.

Asuma:

Update him on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

Request to confirm the theory by studying the seal on Naruto.

Naruto (if permitted):

Share Minato's notes and poetry.

Explain that's research notes mixed in.

We imagine he's already read them.

We have some memories of our Dad doing romantic things for Hana. The notes in the margin aren't the same, but if our Dad kept a journal or something, we know that we'd want to get to read through it and feel close to him.

I have some feedback.

Revisit the notes with the corrected journals, and update our theories appropriately.
Optimize/sanity check our approach with Mari.
- Goal: (clear articulation of goals go here)
Asuma:
- Update him on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.
- We'd like to continue studying these notes. This might, eventually, involve studying Naruto's seal.
  - Confirming the theory would advance the state of sealcraft in Leaf significantly. It's possible that the only way to do this would be to study Naruto's seal. May we approach him to request permission?
    - We're asking both the Hokage and someone who knows Naruto well.
  - We would not do anything which could disrupt the seal - strict observation, and only what's required to confirm our theories.
Naruto (if permitted):
- Share Minato's notes and poetry.
  - Explain there's research notes mixed in.
- We imagine he's already read them.
  - We have some memories of our Dad doing romantic things for Hana. The notes in the margin aren't the same, but if our Dad kept a journal or something, we know that we'd want to get to read through it and feel close to him.
- As above, explain our chakra system theory and feel him out on eventually studying his seal.
  - Tread very lightly.

roobee · Jun 13, 2022

plans talking to naruto about bijuu might as well add talking to kurama about dragons

FaintlySorcerous · Jun 13, 2022

roobee said:
plans talking to naruto about bijuu might as well add talking to kurama about dragons

We don't know that Naruto can talk to Kurama.

Let's say he can. Kurama would be drawing on the memories of the Ten-Tails. We don't know how much access he (she?) has to those. We don't know how much Kurama would be willing to share or whether it would be reliable. We don't know how many Dragons are sealed, so we can't guess the probability that Kurama can speak to their weaknesses, or that they'd be useful.

This seems like a 'maybe once we're friendlier with him' topic IMO.

Oneiros · Jun 13, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
I think that the probability of your proposed changes going through skyrockets if you can provide exact changes to wording which are easy for the plan authors to implement. There are also the normal concerns about 'is your suggestion compatible with the core intention of the plan' (which I feel it isn't in the case of what I'm getting from your suggestion to PA, which is that you want to remove the part where we talk with Asuma, which feels core to the plan to me) but that's neither here nor there. The suggestion 'please expand your sanity check' seems reasonable, but I'm really unclear as to how you want it to be expanded and without that clarity, it's both unlikely to happen and probably frustrating for everyone involved.

Good catch on PA's I was def not as clear as I meant to be. I just want to cut this line

ProperAttorney said:
Share with Asuma if Mari and Kagome think agree to.

Which isn't a deal breaker for me but just personal prefrence. PA has a mostly solid plan

FaintlySorcerous said:
and saying that you'd like faf to make a change to his plan, without specifying what it is.

for Faf's I accidentally posted before pasted in my edits but here they are

Oneiros said:
or Faflecs I would change this

Sanity-check with Mari, to the extent OPSEC allows.

Update Asuma on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

to this

Sanity-check with Mari, to the extent OPSEC allows

If Mari thinks it's a good idea update Asuma on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

faflec · Jun 13, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
I think it might be worth including a link to the original Yuno plan and/or clarifying that what you're including is a direct quote from that plan. Things like 'heal consequences' no longer make sense. We can also cut the parts about 'employ these forms if they exist' because Hazo confirmed that we have no way of knowing if they exist other than asking Yuno.

FaintlySorcerous said:
I have some feedback.

Edits made.

faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories
Word Count: ???

Flashback to the rest of the Yuno conversation. For reference:

Sanity-check with Noburi/Mari. Heal consequences. Include Noburi if he wants.

Tone: respectful, following Isanese customs.

A key clan value is communication. What happened was the opposite of that.

This is not a dressing down. We know you feel bad. We know you'll apologize.

If you ever want support - advice, someone to talk to, whatever - let us know. We say this as a clan head and friend.

(Employ Isanese 'I mean this with utterly sincerity' forms if they exist.)

Relatedly: you need to stop assaulting people.

Not for Noburi, not for the clan. For her. If this continues, there will be consequences. We cannot lose her.

She's an incredible asset, but more importantly, family.

Please come to us. Whatever it is, we will help.

(Intensify previous Isanese forms if possible.)

The Biju Seal:

Revisit the notes with the corrected journals, and update our theories appropriately.

Sanity-check with Mari.

Goal: Check if we should update Asuma/talk to Naruto, and optimize the approach.

Asuma:

Update him on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

We'd like to continue studying these notes. This might, eventually, involve studying Naruto's seal.

Confirming the theory would advance the state of sealcraft in Leaf significantly. It's possible that the only way to do this would be to study Naruto's seal. May we approach him to request permission?

We're asking both the Hokage and someone who knows Naruto well.

We won't do anything which could disrupt the seal - strict observation, and only what's required to confirm our theories.

Naruto (if permitted):

Share Minato's notes and poetry.

Explain there's research notes mixed in.

We imagine he's already read them.

We have some memories of our Dad doing romantic things for Hana. The notes in the margin aren't the same, but if our Dad kept a journal or something, we know that we'd want to get to read through it and feel close to him.

Explain our chakra system theory and feel him out on eventually studying his seal.

Tread very lightly.

Get caught up on what we've missed.

Black King · Jun 13, 2022

[X] Action Plan: Following Leads

FaintlySorcerous · Jun 13, 2022

[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories

roobee · Jun 13, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
We don't know that Naruto can talk to Kurama.

Let's say he can. Kurama would be drawing on the memories of the Ten-Tails. We don't know how much access he (she?) has to those. We don't know how much Kurama would be willing to share or whether it would be reliable. We don't know how many Dragons are sealed, so we can't guess the probability that Kurama can speak to their weaknesses, or that they'd be useful.

This seems like a 'maybe once we're friendlier with him' topic IMO.

Sure lot of uncertaintys. But high potential payoff. I think we are friendly enough with Naruto already for this purpose. And with things at stake, friendliness shouldn't really matter. If you are talking about friendliness with Kurama, dunno how we gonna achieve that soon.
edit: but if you really don't wanna risk naruto getting mad at hazou. could get kei or ami to ask
edit2: also don't know why you think naruto friendly enough to ask to study his seal. but not to talk with kurama

faflec · Jun 13, 2022

Minor edit to the flashback since the thing got glitched.

faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories
Word Count: ???

Flashback to the rest of the Yuno conversation. For reference:

Yuno:

Sanity-check with Noburi/Mari. Heal consequences. Include Noburi if he wants.

Tone: respectful, following Isanese customs.

Employ Isanese 'clan head requests favour of valued clanswoman' forms if they exist.

Also, Fujisawa.

A key clan value is communication. What happened was the opposite of that.

This is not a dressing down. We know you feel bad. We know you'll apologize.

If you ever want support - advice, someone to talk to, whatever - let us know. We say this as a clan head and friend.

(Employ Isanese 'I mean this with utterly sincerity' forms if they exist.)

Relatedly: you need to stop assaulting people.

Not for Noburi, not for the clan. For her. If this continues, there will be consequences. We cannot lose her.

She's an incredible asset, but more importantly, family.

Please come to us. Whatever it is, we will help.

(Intensify previous Isanese forms if possible.)

The Biju Seal:

Revisit the notes with the corrected journals, and update our theories appropriately.

Sanity-check with Mari.

Goal: Check if we should update Asuma/talk to Naruto, and optimize the approach.

Asuma:

Update him on our breakthrough, and our theory that it molds onto a chakra system.

We'd like to continue studying these notes. This might, eventually, involve studying Naruto's seal.

Confirming the theory would advance the state of sealcraft in Leaf significantly. It's possible that the only way to do this would be to study Naruto's seal. May we approach him to request permission?

We're asking both the Hokage and someone who knows Naruto well.

We won't do anything which could disrupt the seal - strict observation, and only what's required to confirm our theories.

Naruto (if permitted):

Share Minato's notes and poetry.

Explain there's research notes mixed in.

We imagine he's already read them.

We have some memories of our Dad doing romantic things for Hana. The notes in the margin aren't the same, but if our Dad kept a journal or something, we know that we'd want to get to read through it and feel close to him.

Explain our chakra system theory and feel him out on eventually studying his seal.

Tread very lightly.

Get caught up on what we've missed.

RandomOTP · Jun 13, 2022

[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories

roobee · Jun 13, 2022

also ninja culture is a military hierarchy. which makes friendship matter even less on matters of state security compared to the real world culture.

coldcutconvict · Jun 13, 2022

[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories

MrRobot · Jun 13, 2022

[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories

I like this plan.

faflec · Jun 13, 2022

Minimal changes related to ease-of-reading.

faflec said:
[X] Action Plan: Flashbacks and Memories
Word Count: ???

Flashback the Yuno conversation. For reference:

Yuno:

Sanity-check with Noburi/Mari. Heal consequences. Include Noburi if he wants.

Tone: respectful, following Isanese customs.

Employ Isanese 'clan head requests favour of valued clanswoman' forms if they exist.

Also, Fujisawa.

A key clan value is communication. What happened was the opposite of that.

This is not a dressing down. We know you feel bad. We know you'll apologize.

If you ever want support - advice, someone to talk to, whatever - let us know. We say this as a clan head and friend.

(Employ Isanese 'I mean this with utterly sincerity' forms if they exist.)

Relatedly: you need to stop assaulting people.

Not for Noburi, not for the clan. For her. If this continues, there will be consequences. We cannot lose her.

She's an incredible asset, but more importantly, family.

Please come to us. Whatever it is, we will help.

(Intensify previous Isanese forms if possible.)

Biju Sealing Notes:

Revisit the notes with the corrected journals. Update our theories accordingly.

Sanity-check with Mari.

Goal: Check if we should update Asuma/talk to Naruto. Optimize the approach.

Asuma:

Update him on our breakthrough, and our theory that the seal molds onto a chakra system.

We'd like to continue studying these notes. This might, eventually, involve studying Naruto's seal.

Confirming the theory would advance the state of sealcraft in Leaf significantly. It's possible we'd have to study Naruto's seal. May we approach him to request permission?

We're asking you, the Hokage and someone who knows Naruto well.

We'll limit ourselves to strict observation and what's necessary to confirm our theories - nothing that could disrupt the seal.

Naruto (if permitted):

Share Minato's notes and poetry.

Explain there's research notes mixed in.

We imagine he's already read them.

We have some memories of our Dad doing romantic things for Hana. The notes in the margin aren't the same, but if our Dad kept a journal or something, we know that we'd want to get to read through it and feel close to him.

Explain our chakra system theory and feel him out on eventually studying his seal.

Tread very lightly.

Get caught up on what we've missed.

Shane_357 · Jun 13, 2022

Inferno Vulpix said:
The first truth is that regardless of what Naruto wants, our obligation as a Leaf-nin is to ensure proper we follow proper OPSEC protocols. It's not our call whether or not telling Naruto this is for the good of Leaf or not: it's Asuma's. Even if Naruto really would hate us telling Asuma first, Asuma's our direct superior and Naruto's not in our chain of command, so we'd just have to eat that L.

But I personally don't think his reaction is likely to be that bad. I'm talking immediately after we inform Asuma, within the same day at the latest, or the moment Naruto gets back if he's currently off on mission. There should be no meaningful period of time where Naruto is kept in the dark about this, unless Asuma decides Naruto is not allowed to hear about it at all, in which case he is our dictator and we have no choice but to obey.

The only cause I really see for Naruto to be angry at us is "You didn't break OPSEC procedures and/or disobey the Hokage to tell me this information I care dearly about." If that winds up happening, I understand where his anger is coming from, but asking us to have done anything else would be wholly unreasonable and he'll just have to deal with it.

But again, our plan is to quickly confirm that we're allowed to tell him and then immediately go do exactly that. If Naruto is at all reasonable he'll recognize that we're doing our best to respect his stake in this.

I am the first to raise the alarm and get upset when we're about to be killboxed because Hazou is being stupid. This is not one of those times. Asuma's own issues and those of Hazou and Naruto are intersecting at a sufficient degree, that when combined with Naruto's position and clearance, will protect us from fallout.

Shane_357 · Jun 13, 2022

Further I want to note that this could be a critical gesture vis a vis Naruto. He's spent his entire life entirely unable to engage with much of his father's legacy and his mother's ancestry because he can't seal. How we treat this is basically broadcasting about how we feel about 'Naruto as Minato's heir'. If we take it to Asuma first we're saying that Naruto has no claim. That he is separate from his father and unworthy of his legacy, that even if he had children who could seal they would have no greater claim than any other Leaf sealmaster. If we give it to Naruto it's a positive gesture of support, that despite his inability to follow his path, he is still his father's son with all that involves in a clan-based society like the Elemental Nations. You want him on board for Necromancy? This could help. We can choose to give primacy to the Tower's claim, Naruto's claim or split it halfway by telling both simultaneously. As I have previously outlined, due to a confluence of daddy issues, Asuma will most likely give us a pass on this. We should take the option that maximises positive relations with Naruto, in addition to being the 'right' answer.

roobee · Jun 13, 2022

The Elemental Nations is a clan-based society, but I don't think parent-child relationships are that strong typically in ninja clans. I imagine more the clan has assigned childrearers, freeing the biological parents to do their ninja duties.
I dunno when the Uzumaki clan was decimated. But if it was just Naruto's parents and him that would be an exception yeah. Like Hazou close bond to mother since outcast from family.

Hmm. One reaction of Naruto I do find possible ending with him being more favorably inclined towards hazou. Is him not actually caring about knowing first, but being flattered that our emotions led us to tell him first even if he thinks thats a crazy choice. feels related to rock lee. and feels like a reaction the naruto of canon could have. it could also make naruto believe that hazou does crazy stuff, which could make explaining away treason-looking actions in the past and future easier.

RandomOTP · Jun 14, 2022

Shane_357 said:
Further I want to note that this could be a critical gesture vis a vis Naruto. He's spent his entire life entirely unable to engage with much of his father's legacy and his mother's ancestry because he can't seal. How we treat this is basically broadcasting about how we feel about 'Naruto as Minato's heir'. If we take it to Asuma first we're saying that Naruto has no claim. That he is separate from his father and unworthy of his legacy, that even if he had children who could seal they would have no greater claim than any other Leaf sealmaster. If we give it to Naruto it's a positive gesture of support, that despite his inability to follow his path, he is still his father's son with all that involves in a clan-based society like the Elemental Nations. You want him on board for Necromancy? This could help. We can choose to give primacy to the Tower's claim, Naruto's claim or split it halfway by telling both simultaneously. As I have previously outlined, due to a confluence of daddy issues, Asuma will most likely give us a pass on this. We should take the option that maximises positive relations with Naruto, in addition to being the 'right' answer.

Given the previous killbox incidents, Word of Mari saying that Asuma would kill Hazou if he thought Hazou was trying to gain Tsunade or Naruto's loyalty, and Asuma's interlude where Asuma said he would kill Hazou "and damn the consequences" if he even suspected Hazou was trying to manipulate him?

I don't really care about Naruto all that much (beyond "can kill us at any point" and "someone Jiraiya/Kei/Akane care about, to varying levels"). I really don't. Daddy issues, living with in the shadow of Minato's legend... Cool, I guess?

Naruto doesn't even really exist in Hazou-pilot's "pretty damn far" treason-sphere. I'm content to go to (Mari first, then) Asuma and let him sort it out. Hazou doesn't have a lot of goodwill to burn, not when it comes to looking like he's possibly-swaying the loyalty of one-third of Leaf's military might away from the Hokage.

Because Asuma knows that Hazou isn't loyal to Leaf, but instead sees Leaf as the most useful launching point to build his new world. Asuma even said as much to Hazou, and Hazou-pilot didn't deny it.

I'm playing it safe. Godking Dictator trumps demigod with daddy issues.

coldcutconvict · Jun 14, 2022

[X] Men Will Really Open Portals to Hell Before Talking About Their Feelings
Word Count: ???

Flashback the Yuno conversation. For reference:
- Yuno:
  
  Sanity-check with Noburi/Mari. Heal consequences. Include Noburi if he wants.
  
  Tone: respectful, following Isanese customs.
  
  Employ Isanese 'clan head requests favour of valued clanswoman' forms if they exist.
  
  Also, Fujisawa.
  
  A key clan value is communication. What happened was the opposite of that.
  
  This is not a dressing down. We know you feel bad. We know you'll apologize.
  
  If you ever want support - advice, someone to talk to, whatever - let us know. We say this as a clan head and friend.
  
  (Employ Isanese 'I mean this with utterly sincerity' forms if they exist.)
  
  Relatedly: you need to stop assaulting people.
  
  Not for Noburi, not for the clan. For her. If this continues, there will be consequences. We cannot lose her.
  
  She's an incredible asset, but more importantly, family.
  
  Please come to us. Whatever it is, we will help.
  
  (Intensify previous Isanese forms if possible.)
Biju Sealing Notes:
- Revisit the notes with the corrected journals. Update our theories accordingly.
- Help Kagome research whichever leads he thinks are most likely to advance opening the portal.
Get caught up on what we've missed.

FaintlySorcerous · Jun 14, 2022

Paperclipped said:
Also, I can buy that the cosmology stuff matters a lot for sealing, but so far it seems like it is unlikely to be relevant for medical ninjutsu... until here.

It's worth noting that hospitals staff more aggressively on full moons. Modern hospitals.

Shane_357 said:
He's spent his entire life entirely unable to engage with much of his father's legacy and his mother's ancestry because he can't seal.

Do we know why he doesn't seal? Jiraiya would have taught him in a heartbeat. Because the risk of failure is so much greater?

He's going to understand why we took third to Jiraiya first...or Mari will tell us who to talk to first if it's a big deal.

RandomOTP · Jun 14, 2022

RandomOTP said:
Because Asuma knows that Hazou isn't loyal to Leaf, but instead sees Leaf as the most useful launching point to build his new world. Asuma even said as much to Hazou, and Hazou-pilot didn't deny it.

I admit, this was a while ago, and Hazou-pilot may have changed his feelings regarding this. He has made a lot of memories here, his friends and family lives here, his dependents (Goketsu civis) live/ love here, and he even helped Kagome see that their fates are tied to Leaf's.

Hazou-pilot may consider Leaf to be his home, and Asuma (an empathetic person who can read Hazou) would likely be able to tell.

Still doesn't change my ultimate decision, though. Asuma > Naruto. I'd hate to give Naruto another reason to hate us/want us dead, but breaking opsec isn't a good way to reassure Naruto about Hazou's treason habits.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

In doubt there's always the Sun!

Banned Forever

Banned Forever