Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Paperclipped said:

@eaglejarl @Velorien : Would this have been the first time that Akane has ever killed a human being with her own hands? Returning, did she seem at all disturbed by having to burn the town and potentially doom its thousands of people to starvation?

Would Akane have earned a TYS point or two for the experience? Poor girl is only at 3.

[X] Action Plan: The Shining Heart -- A Youthful Uplift Speech
Word Count: 498 (-1 XP)

• Spend time with Akane in a safe, secure place.
• Be present, and listen if she wants to talk.
• If she wants reassurance...
  • The world is terrible. There's no undoing the atrocities of being a ninja. Hazou wishes he could undo the Sunset Racer.
  • Why is the world so terrible?
  • It's not you, Akane. Following orders is not any absolution, but you were trying to win the war and stop the violence for everyone.
  • Asuma isn't the reason either. He's taking actions he has to take.
  • It's the system. Everyone is competing with everyone else to try to win an accelerating race to the bottom.
  • The system punishes those who try to act better. Ninja who treat civilians as worth more than their resources get exploited for their weakness.
  • It's an antlion pit. Even with the scrip, which we were using to help people in Leaf, others in Leaf had to exploit it. If even internally, everyone is controlled by the competition, war outside is going to be nothing but atrocities.
  • That's the world. If you want to follow your ideals, the world will make you suffer by punishing every deviation from the competition.
  • But there's still a glimmer of hope. Two, in fact.
  • First, our words to Itachi at Todoroki Shrine were true. There are some changes that strengthen our ideals in ways that the world cannot take away.
  • Clanless ninja aren't intrinsically less than Clan. We showed that. Now, Asuma and Ebisu are working to ensure that everyone gets support.
  • Civilians aren't stupid and unworthy of education. We showed that. Now, a civilian research team has invented an independent form of flight.
  • These ideals can't be compromised because they're the truth. Eventually, anyone who doesn't respect clanless and civilians will be destroyed by the same competition that once enabled their prejudice.
  • Second, the world may punish you if you stick to your ideals, but the correct, youthful thing to do is to stick to them anyway. And… the Shadow Clone technique could give us the strength to do just that.
  • The world may be an antlion pit, but if we grow large enough, we can simply step out of the pit.
  • Right now, we can't step out, so we follow orders. We can't forget or distance ourselves from the Sunset Racer, but we will one day be strong enough to find a better path when faced with the same situation.
  • Hashirama tried to use power to change the system and succeeded, but the world he made still isn't enough for our ideals. No other Kage has been strong enough to try.
  • If we want to change the world for the better, we need to act with great forethought, but the system of violence that the world creates cannot be allowed to continue.
    • (mechanical proposal: transmute Akane's "Youth is All You Need" Aspect to "Youthful Idealist", allowing her to buy Forged in Fire.)
• If Akane would like it, find Ino and bring her in for support as well.

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Paperclipped said:

Word Count: Absolutely terrible.

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Paperclipped said:

Ninja are forced to desperation, to strike at the enemy's weakest points. Ninja don't see civilians as worth anything beyond their resources. They don't see the value in defending them.

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Paperclipped said:

These changes can't be taken away, because they're the truth. To win the game, in the long run, people need to respect the clanless and the civilians. If they don't, they will lose.

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Paperclipped said:

• And second.... the Shadow Clone technique might yet give us the tools we need to change the system at a fundamental level.
• The world may be an antlion pit, but if we grow large enough, we can simply step out of the pit.
• It will be hard. Hashirama tried to use power to change the system and failed. No Kage since has been unilaterally powerful enough to even try, and Akatsuki, the one other group with a chance, failed.
• Can we do the same? Should we do the same? For choices that are so big, so impactful, anything we do must be done carefully and with great forethought. But the world as it is, the system of violence that it creates, cannot be allowed to continue as is.

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eaglejarl said:

"More importantly, none of us knows anything about ruling," Itachi said. "The Third was not a success because he was a powerful ninja, although that certainly didn't hurt. He was a success because he was a politician, a diplomat, an educator, and a builder. He could get people to work together and he understood how to set up self-sustaining systems. You think we could do that? A kin-slayer"—he gestured to himself, then waved towards the doorway through which Hidan had vanished in quest of tea—"a murderous zealot—"

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faflec said:

You are two words off 499, could you cut?

They don't see enemy civilians as worth anything beyond their resources; they care more about their own civilians even if they don't care to the extent that we (Uplift/the players) do.

I'd disagree with respecting the clanless and civilians, people can respect them while still not caring about them as resource generators/numbers on a page. Ninja, and especially clan ninja/upper class ninja need to empathize with them.


I'd also want to shelve mention of Shadow Clone, I don't care if this is in a "safe" place this mention is not necessary to get your point across.

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Paperclipped said:

I made updates, could you check the new version?

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Paperclipped said:

It's not you, Akane. Following orders is not any absolution, but you were trying to win the war and stop the violence for everyone.

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Paperclipped said:

The system punishes those who try to act better. Ninja who treat civilians as worth more than their resources get exploited for their weakness.

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Paperclipped said:

It's an antlion pit. Even with the scrip, which we were using to help people in Leaf, others in Leaf had to exploit it. If even internally, everyone is controlled by the competition, war outside is going to be nothing but atrocities.

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Paperclipped said:

Second, the world may punish you if you stick to your ideals, but the correct, youthful thing to do is to stick to them anyway. And… the Shadow Clone technique could give us the strength to do just that.

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Paperclipped said:

• The world may be an antlion pit, but if we grow large enough, we can simply step out of the pit.
• Right now, we can't step out, so we follow orders. We can't forget or distance ourselves from the Sunset Racer, but we will one day be strong enough to find a better path when faced with the same situation.
• Hashirama tried to use power to change the system and succeeded, but the world he made still isn't enough for our ideals. No other Kage has been strong enough to try.

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faflec said:

"...and stop the violence for everyone"?

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faflec said:

I would put "weakness" in quotes; it's not a weakness.

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faflec said:

We don't know-know others in Leaf were responsible; maybe you could cut out "in Leaf"?

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faflec said:

Reiterating that we shouldn't mention Shadow Clone.

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faflec said:

Reiterating Itachi's speech on Hiruzen's success being primarily due to his social skills and not primarily due to his punching skills.

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Paperclipped said:

I think it is tangibly a weakness, since to do otherwise exposes an attack vector for the opponent. It's not a moral failing, but I think that will be clear to both Hazou and Akane.

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Paperclipped said:

Reasonable suspicion, given the sketchy circumstances. The comparison doesn't have the same impact without a in-Leaf thing to compare to the out-of-Leaf war thing. Any suggestions for a replacement?

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Paperclipped said:

Hm... On the one hand, we're talking about being more like Hashirama than Hiruzen. On the other hand, I think this is included in the subsequent "great forethought" part?

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Paperclipped said:

[X] Action Plan: The Shining Heart -- A Youthful Uplift Speech

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MrRobot said:

We know that akane are blaming herself for those deaths?

We may be jumping the gun otherwise, hazou dont know anything about the mission yet.

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Shrooms said:

This is the first time she's ever killed someone, and like I know ninja are propagandized to as kids but I would be astonished if it didn't bother her at all. She's got the soul of a golden retriever

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FaintlySorcerous said:

I thought she merked Arikada (sp?).

Probably her first time killing someone who was credibly innocent.

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FaintlySorcerous said:

I thought she merked Arikada (sp?).

Probably her first time killing someone who was credibly innocent.

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Velorien said:

"And you." Akane pivoted to look at him. He had never seen this expression on Akane's face before. Not once. Even after he'd revealed her special technique to the rest of Leaf, she'd just been sad, and hurt, and if she'd felt any anger, she'd put it somewhere far out of sight until she was done breaking up with him and he'd gone away.

It wasn't the dark kind of anger that had led Hazō to try to destroy the Hagoromo. It was the polar opposite of the cold, merciless anger that Ami showed when someone hurt or threatened Kei (it would probably be easier this way). It was the blinding light of the sun, and this close up, it did not allow for any shadows to hide in.

"You were going to give him a slap on the wrist," Akane said clearly. "You were going to let it go without consequences. You were going to say please."

"It was the right way to approach it," Hazō insisted. "You know Haru can be volatile. Trying to put pressure on him would only have made him rebel."

"This is not about Haru," Akane said. "I am talking to you, Hazō. You are condoning murder. Killing in self-defence isn't murder. Killing to save a life isn't murder. Killing because there's no other way to survive isn't murder. Every one of those things, every time, is a tragedy that we have to allow in order to keep our village safe. I know that people aren't perfect, and sometimes even doing our best means stretching those definitions. But you promised me a world in which those tragedies would end, not a world in which real murder—taking a life for your own benefit—is fine as long as the Hokage doesn't mind."

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Velorien said:

"They are civilians," Akane snapped. "Not that it would matter if they weren't. If they're criminals, that means they should be judged by the law. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't give you the right to murder people who have their own lives and thoughts and feelings, and a chance for redemption which you're taking away from them. Nothing can give you that right.

"Murder is not Uplift. Murder can never be Uplift. Don't ever suggest that again."

"I did nothing wrong," Haru said, but quietly. Even he couldn't stand tall in the face of an angry Akane.

"You're not the man I thought you were, Haru," Akane said. "And neither are you."

"Akane…" Hazō tried, but he wasn't sure what to say next.

"Haru doesn't understand Uplift," she said to Hazō. "That's not an excuse for murdering people, but at least it's an explanation. But you invented Uplift. You swore to build a world with no more Sunset Racers. You swore to build a world without death because every life is precious. I've dedicated my life to helping you build that world.

"You should be furious that Haru has been taking human lives for convenience's sake and calling it Uplift. I should be the one holding you back, trying to persuade you that he deserves a second chance because everyone does. I shouldn't be watching you give lukewarm disapproval to mass murder just because the people that died weren't part of your ingroup. That's not just unyouthful. It's disgusting."

The words sent a shock through Hazō. Haru, too. Akane had never spoken that way to them before. She'd never spoken that way to anyone.

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• Spend time with Akane in a safe, secure place.
• Listen to her before continuing below.
  • Get the summary of her mission.
• Hazo has to wear many hats. As Akane's lover, he is overjoyed that she is safe. As part of Uplift, her actions worry Hazo.
  • The world is terrible.
  • The system punishes those who try to act better. Ninja who treat civilians as worth more than their resources get exploited for their weakness.
  • It's an antlion pit, with each side doing worse and worse things to the other in order to try and eke out a comparative advantage. It results in everyone being a worse position.
  • That's the world. If you want to follow your ideals, the world will make you suffer by punishing every deviation from the competition.
  • Those who try to change the system from the outside are punished.
    • Akatsuki.
    • Hidden Whirlpool.
    • Samurai.
  • Those who try to change the system from the inside are forced to commit acts that go against what they believe in.
    • The Burden of the Idealist.
  • We dirty ourselves working towards this ideal future. We become less worthy of it.
  • We persevere.
  • We have to, because in a thousand years, no one has managed the societal change that Uplift has.
    • Clanless ninja aren't intrinsically less than Clan. We showed that. Now, Asuma and Ebisu are working to ensure that everyone gets support.
    • Civilians aren't stupid and unworthy of education. We showed that. Now, a civilian research team has invented an independent form of flight.
  • We persevere, so that our children may be true to their selves. So that they do not have to dirty themselves as we have.
  • The consequences of our actions are horrible, and nothing we do can erase that. What we can do is make their deaths the beginning of the end of this system of.
  • If we want to change the world for the better, we need to act with great forethought, but the system of violence that the world creates cannot be allowed to continue. No matter the cost to our selves.
    • (mechanical proposal: transmute Akane's "Youth is All You Need" Aspect to "The Burden of the Idealist", allowing her to buy Forged in Fire.)
  • Once this war is over, you and Haru should discuss what actions you can take to atone.
• If Akane would like it, find Ino and bring her in for support as well.

Paperclipped said:

[X] Action Plan: The Shining Heart -- A Youthful Uplift Speech
Word Count: 488 (-1 XP)

• Spend time with Akane in a safe, secure place.
• Be present, and listen if she wants to talk.
• If she wants reassurance...
  • The world is terrible. There's no undoing the atrocities of being a ninja. Hazou wishes he could undo the Sunset Racer.
  • Why is the world so terrible?
  • It's not you, Akane. Following orders is not any absolution, but you were trying to help end the war
  • Asuma isn't the reason either. He's taking actions he has to take.
  • It's the system. Everyone is competing with everyone else to try to win an accelerating race to the bottom.
  • The system punishes those who try to act better. Ninja who treat civilians as worth more than their resources get exploited for their weakness.
  • It's an antlion pit. Even with the scrip, which we were using to help people in Leaf, others in Leaf had to exploit it. If even internally, everyone is controlled by the competition, war outside is going to be nothing but atrocities.
  • That's the world. If you want to follow your ideals, the world will make you suffer by punishing every deviation from the competition.
  • But there's still a glimmer of hope. Two, in fact.
  • First, our words to Itachi at Todoroki Shrine were true. There are some changes that strengthen our ideals in ways that the world cannot take away.
  • Clanless ninja aren't intrinsically less than Clan. We showed that. Now, Asuma and Ebisu are working to ensure that everyone gets support.
  • Civilians aren't stupid and unworthy of education. We showed that. Now, a civilian research team has invented an independent form of flight.
  • These ideals can't be compromised because they're the truth. Eventually, anyone who doesn't respect clanless and civilians will be destroyed by the same competition that once enabled their prejudice.
  • Second, the world may punish you if you stick to your ideals, but the correct, youthful thing to do is to stick to them anyway. Eventually, we can be strong enough to do that.
  • The world may be an antlion pit, but if we grow large enough, we can simply step out of the pit.
  • Right now, we can't step out, so we follow orders. We can't forget or distance ourselves from the Sunset Racer, but we will one day be strong enough to find a better path when faced with the same situation.
  • Hashirama tried to use power to change the system and succeeded, but the world he made still isn't enough for our ideals. No other Kage has been strong enough to try.
  • If we want to change the world for the better, we need to act with great forethought, but the system of violence that the world creates cannot be allowed to continue.
    • (mechanical proposal: transmute Akane's "Youth is All You Need" Aspect to "Youthful Idealist", allowing her to buy Forged in Fire.)
• If Akane would like it, find Ino and bring her in for support as well.

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• Spend time with Akane in a safe, secure place.
• Be present, and listen if she wants to talk.
• We want to say something to her.
  • The world is terrible. Atrocities are unavoidable as a ninja. Hazo will never forget the Sunset Racer.
  • Why is the world so terrible?
    • It isn't any individual's fault (including Akane). Following orders isn't absolution, but everyone's trying to protect their loved ones and end the war quickly.
    • It isn't Asuma/Leaf's fault - they're doing the same thing on a bigger scale.
    • It's the system: everyone is competing in a race to the bottom.
    • Anyone who does things differently is punished: valuing civilians is a weakness to exploit. Treating your enemies with any mercy kills you.
    • It's an antlion pit. Even internally - scrip, which helped people in Leaf, was exploited.
      • Leaf is better - contrast to Mist - but it's a better version of the same system.
    • Deviation from the system is punished. Participating in the system is intolerable.
    • There's hope.
      • Uplift works. Asuma and Ebisu are working to support the clanless. The seal bank helps everyone. We've proved educating civilians is worth doing - they produced Skysliders.
        • Uplift can't be compromised because it's true. Eventually, people who don't respect the clanless or civilians will be forced to change by the same competition that enables their prejudice now.
      • The burning passion of our Youth lets us stick to our ideals even when it's hard. We're getting stronger. Strength will make it easier. The world is an antlion pit, but we'll step out of it one day.
        • We can't do that right now - we have to follow orders. We can't forget or distance ourselves from the Sunset Racer. But one day we'll be strong enough to forge a better path in those impossible situations.
    • Hashirama was powerful enough to change the system, but the world he made isn't enough. No one else has had the same vision.
  • We refuse to accept the world as it is. We promise that we're going to keep improving and growing stronger, and help her do the same.
    • (mechanical proposal: transmute Akane's "Youth is All You Need" Aspect to "Youthful Idealist", allowing her to buy Forged in Fire.)
• Ask what she wants. Puppies? Quiet? Activity? Normalcy? Time with Ino, her family, other friends? We'll make it happen.

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ProperAttorney said:

Akane has killed civilians in this mission, not because they posed a threat to her or Leaf, not because there was a pressing reason to do so. No, she killed because she was ordered to. "I was just following orders" doesn't absolve you of responsibility or guilt in real life, and it doesn't in fiction either. Akane decided to set fire to the town and is responsible for the deaths that follow. She is a hypocrite for condemning Haru for killing six Yakuza, criminals, in the pursuit of safety for the Goketsu and then turning around and killing civilians that have taken no actions against Leaf or the Goketsu merely on Asuma's word. Would she have been executed for refusing? Maybe, but Akane decided that her life was worth more than the lives of all those civilians.

If we don't respond strongly enough, we will be betraying Akane again.

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ProperAttorney said:

Per @Paperclipped 's request, I'm submitting a revised speech. Some of the below text is taken from previous comments made in the Discord.

Of primary concern is Akane's reaction to Hazo planning to only give Haru a slap on the wrist for killing civilians.



Akane has killed civilians in this mission, not because they posed a threat to her or Leaf, not because there was a pressing reason to do so. No, she killed because she was ordered to. "I was just following orders" doesn't absolve you of responsibility or guilt in real life, and it doesn't in fiction either. Akane decided to set fire to the town and is responsible for the deaths that follow. She is a hypocrite for condemning Haru for killing six Yakuza, criminals, in the pursuit of safety for the Goketsu and then turning around and killing civilians that have taken no actions against Leaf or the Goketsu merely on Asuma's word. Would she have been executed for refusing? Maybe, but Akane decided that her life was worth more than the lives of all those civilians.

If we don't respond strongly enough, we will be betraying Akane again.

[X] Action Plan: The Burden
Word Count: 419 (-1 XP)

• Spend time with Akane in a safe, secure place.
• Listen to her before continuing below.
  • Get the summary of her mission.
• Hazo has to wear many hats. As Akane's lover, he is overjoyed that she is safe. As part of Uplift, her actions worry Hazo.
  • The world is terrible.
  • The system punishes those who try to act better. Ninja who treat civilians as worth more than their resources get exploited for their weakness.
  • It's an antlion pit, with each side doing worse and worse things to the other in order to try and eke out a comparative advantage. It results in everyone being a worse position.
  • That's the world. If you want to follow your ideals, the world will make you suffer by punishing every deviation from the competition.
  • Those who try to change the system from the outside are punished.
    • Akatsuki.
    • Hidden Whirlpool.
    • Samurai.
  • Those who try to change the system from the inside are forced to commit acts that go against what they believe in.
    • The Burden of the Idealist.
  • We dirty ourselves working towards this ideal future. We become less worthy of it.
  • We persevere.
  • We have to, because in a thousand years, no one has managed the societal change that Uplift has.
    • Clanless ninja aren't intrinsically less than Clan. We showed that. Now, Asuma and Ebisu are working to ensure that everyone gets support.
    • Civilians aren't stupid and unworthy of education. We showed that. Now, a civilian research team has invented an independent form of flight.
  • We persevere, so that our children may be true to their selves. So that they do not have to dirty themselves as we have.
  • The consequences of our actions are horrible, and nothing we do can erase that. What we can do is make their deaths the beginning of the end of this system of.
  • If we want to change the world for the better, we need to act with great forethought, but the system of violence that the world creates cannot be allowed to continue. No matter the cost to our selves.
    • (mechanical proposal: transmute Akane's "Youth is All You Need" Aspect to "The Burden of the Idealist", allowing her to buy Forged in Fire.)
  • Once this war is over, you and Haru should discuss what actions you can take to atone.
• If Akane would like it, find Ino and bring her in for support as well.

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FaintlySorcerous said:

I've rejiggered the plan a bit in a way that puts it under wordcount (383) while preserving the intentions and content, which also flows a little better to my eye. I'm not a huge fan of sticking so much of the content under a single branch of an if statement, either, when the other branch is completely unspecified.

I also think that we should make the 'go talk to Ino after our big Uplift speech' more explicit because right now the nature of the bulleted list allows (IMO) a reading of 'go get Ino, then make the speech.

I think that setting up the potential change in Aspect as the result of a commitment Hazo is making to her is a bit more...organic? I think that a speech and a commitment carries more weight than a speech on its own.

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eaglejarl said:

As per their orders, the three ninja then let as much of the city on fire as possible, taking care that the city food warehouses were well torched.

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ProperAttorney said:

Would she have been executed for refusing? Maybe, but Akane decided that her life was worth more than the lives of all those civilians

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faflec said:

I observe that Akane has shown remarkable pragmatism with regards to un-Uplifty ideals. Like how she didn't bat an eye at Mari killing Leaf-nin back when we traveled to Tea for the first time.

Also related: I do not see her as having made the decision to burn the place.

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ProperAttorney said:

[X] Action Plan: Definitely Another Normal Birthday
[X] Training Hazou: Resolve + Calligraphy
[X] Training Akane: Survival and uncaps but not so much she is promoted

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Shrooms said:

[X] Action Plan: Definitely Another Normal Birthday

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Velorien said:

Please don't vote after the deadline on Wednesdays. It makes closing voting annoying since I have to do it by post numbers and not by "last threadmark to end of thread" (for some reason, SV won't let you combine the two).

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