Successor (BTVS)

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[X] Buffy has Maggie, Riley, and Engleman detained. Stunt what to do about them and the Initiative.
-[X] Riley seems the most reasonable of the bunch. Make him an offer to take control of the Initiative so they can search for any dangerous experiments Maggie was running and anything else that could be a threat to the city (and beyond). Use Maggie and his desire to make sure the program runs properly (and isn't just torn down by Buffy and friends) to help leverage that if need be. Offer some knowledge too, from what Giles and the Council might be able to lend, to help make things easier for the teams there. The Magic team might also be able to provide them with support, something the Initiative will be desperately lacking with all their supernatural assets now gone.
--[X] If he refuses, have Jonathon and Cyber Willow put together disguises to help sneak Buffy's people in. Disperse the personel from the base (come up with some excuse about 'paranatural containment breach' or something), seal it off, take all the data and weapons, and break everything else they can.
-[X] Have Maggie officially put down as being entered into a mental hospital, that's a lot harder to fight then charging her with a crime. If possible, do so actually too. A psychology professor claiming to be a secret military leader with a bunker underneath the campus and experimenting on demons sounds pretty crazy even by Sunnydale standards.

I feel like throwing people into the dimensional fissure that an expert has said is really unstable is a Bad Idea.
 
[X] Plan: Dismantled Initiative
-[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Detain the other two.
-[X] Have CyberWillow and Jonathon help a team sneak into the Initiative disguised as Maggie and the others. Take all the data they can, come up with an excuse to drive most of the Initiative out of the base (maybe a paranormal containment breach or the like), then seal off the base. Take some weapons, wreck anything else, break apart the base until it's as useless as they can feasibly make it, then leave.
-[X] Apologize for how things went down with Maggie but point out that she was a serious threat to the safety of the entire city and possibly planet with her schemes and ignorance. And point out that none of this can be proved and the Mayor's office has miles of evidence on their own illegal activities (as well as showing a bit of how bad those plans they uncovered were) if they threaten to bring the military down on the town or anything else foolish. Then let them go.

A new plan, because Maggie is a pain in our rear but the others don't really deserve to die. That and we can get rid of the Initiative because honestly, it's just a huge problem if Adam ever comes back
 
I'm very much against letting the other free and live. Like the spy has a lot of information on everything we do, and the others are going to be reporting everything we've done all the same, which is going to hamper narratives we spin. They're likely to become our enemies or help future villains out.
 
A thing to be aware of, if I recall correctly, is that a person can be involuntarily committed for 48 hours no matter what kinds of "I am perfectly sane" they can project. 48 hours in isolation is a lot of time for us to work around Walsh
 
Lupercal said:
For what it's worth I really do think Plan I Choose Violence is underestimating the Federal Government.
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Potentially. I'm partially going off the fact that in BTVS canon, after the initiative fell apart and was defeated, the feds were content to pull back and let Scooby Gang manage the supernatural side of things there.

Blueshift said:
While you want to blackmail them and assume the federal government will just roll over.
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Ultimately I think the best solution would be if the Initiative just disappeared, and nobody knew what happened except that it was probably some bad shit. That was my original intention with my plans, but the issue is that they involve taking a large number of hostages who we don't want to kill, so we're going to have to do exchange later.

Thinking of, what if we just drugged the base's water with the Caveman stuff or the the mushroom stuff or Ethan Rayne's teenager candy stuff to induce basically an Initiative-wide mass psychosis? Especially in combination this should 1) mostly non-lethal (although it would certainly cause at least some deaths) 2) Unclear who did it and why (could have been a random demon of the week, who's to say - they've got zero supernatural firepower) 3) would kill the organization in

Couple this maybe with CW/Willow killing the bases power or making everything go haywire + at the same time releasing fake evidence to the local news that the Initiative was abducting and experimenting on people (keep anything supernatural out).

Blueshift said:
Apologize for how things went down with Maggie but point out that she was a serious threat to the safety of the entire city and possibly planet with her schemes and ignorance. And point out that none of this can be proved and the Mayor's office has miles of evidence on their own illegal activities (as well as showing a bit of how bad those plans they uncovered were) if they threaten to bring the military down on the town or anything else foolish. Then let them go.
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See I think the issue with this plans is that they are assuming that Maggie is uniquely delusional and that the rest of the Initiative somehow knows this. They aren't going to, she's their superior officer and even if they know that things went wrong with Adam it's not clear what. The average Initiative soldier was not defecting over Adam's existence.

Edit: I don't think Riley and Engleman are being uniquely reasonable and understand that magic is real and Maggie is delusional and why Adam might have ended the world etc.

Riley and Engleman understand that they are trapped in a very small space with an HST that is stronger than anything they've encountered, that HSTs are as a rule extremely violent, this particular HST is looking very angry and swinging a hammer around, and that they cannot outrun it.

Marlowe310811 said:
A thing to be aware of, if I recall correctly, is that a person can be involuntarily committed for 48 hours no matter what kinds of "I am perfectly sane" they can project. 48 hours in isolation is a lot of time for us to work around Walsh
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You can't just be committed by an arbitrary person, I'm pretty sure.
 
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hailcapital said:
I don't think Riley and Engleman are being uniquely reasonable and understand that magic is real and Maggie is delusional and why Adam might have ended the world etc.
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This wouldn't be talking to the entirety of the initiative, just those two. And hopefully by that point we have evidence of the experiments she preformed on Riley amd the other soldiers to help convince him. The alternative would just be to murder all of them, which would help add to the mystery of what happened to the Initiative, but feels a little too far down the slippery slope for us.
 
Blueshift said:
This wouldn't be talking to the entirety of the initiative, just those two. And hopefully by that point we have evidence of the experiments she preformed on Riley amd the other soldiers to help convince him. The alternative would just be to murder all of them, which would help add to the mystery of what happened to the Initiative, but feels a little too far down the slippery slope for us.
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Do we have that info yet?

Riley is responding to death threats right now, Engleman is instinctively backing away. They don't read to me like they're on the verge of staging an intervention for Maggie or think we have a point. They read like they think Maggie massively misunderstands the situation, but not in the same way as we need them to.

I agree we shouldn't kill them, but I think trying to negotiate with Initiative in any form is a dead end. I think we should just black bag them.
 
hailcapital said:
Do we have that info yet?

Riley is responding to death threats right now, Engleman is instinctively backing away. They don't read to me like they're on the verge of staging an intervention for Maggie or think we have a point. They read like they think Maggie massively misunderstands the situation, but not in the same way as we need them to.

I agree we shouldn't kill them, but I think trying to negotiate with Initiative in any form is a dead end. I think we should just black bag them.
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No, but the plan is open ended enough to account for that when/if we find it out IC.

This isn't really 'negotiating' with them. This is sending them away after making it clear they lost and their side was probably terrible. I just don't want to waste the resources to detain them indefinitely.
 
I find the harmony co up plan, Plan Lizard People and Murder, is very fascinating.
It's trying to recruit the doctor, who was very much Lazer focused on Buffy right from the start.
He seems to have a reasonable head on his shoulders.
An entertaining thought in relation to that plan is that Buffy can play good cop, protecting the doc from the overly zealous and eager girlfriend.
:evil:


It also comes with the benefit that those most loyal to Maggi are removed from the picture and more importantly removes the spy, who knows almost everything about our operations as mayor, won't be able to tattle everything.
It's likely that he was only able to pass limited reports forwards cause him needing to keep cover.
I'd be a good thing to ensure he can't pass on everything he has learned to maintaining info security, for future conflicts. The less is known and spread around the less our enemies will have to work with and discover.

The first of which would be Wolfhram & Hart. Feels like they would know someone corrupt enough to buy said information. And then barter it further.
 
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Blueshift said:
This isn't really 'negotiating' with them. This is sending them away after making it clear they lost and their side was probably terrible. I just don't want to waste the resources to detain them indefinitely.
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See that's the thing, and kinda why I'm open to killing Maggie. It feels like we keep doing that and the other side takes it as a negotiation and then tells us that we have to take a shitty deal or kill them.

If we want to do that... I don't think it's a good idea, but killing Maggie nixes any shot of it IMO. We can't kill Maggie and then basically ask the Initiative to please let us break all their toys and then leave.
 
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hailcapital said:
See that's the thing, and kinda why I'm open to killing Maggie. It feels like we keep doing that and the other side takes it as a negotiation and then tells us that we have to take a shitty deal or kill them.

If we want to do that... I don't think it's a good idea, but killing Maggie nixes any shot of it IMO. We can't kill Maggie and then basically ask the Initiative to please let us break all their toys and then leave.
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? We wouldn't be 'asking' though, we'd have already done it. The people we have detained don't get released until the Initiative is left in shambles
 
[X] Plan: Dismantled Initiative

[X] Plan PR Department
[X]Buffy lets her walk out, and immediately starts the propaganda campaign against her and any backers you can find. You may wish to stunt details.
-[X] Use any footage/recordings Cyber willow has to put Maggie in the worst light publicly, anything that shows her threatening, etc.
-[X] Reveal the military instalation and infiltration of soldiers as students to the campus and beyond.
-[X] Have a team infiltrate the base and scrub any positive signs of progress from her projects, while also gathering any details on the more classified - and worse looking - projects Maggie may have been working on, ready to reveal them to her superiors.
--[X] If there isn't anything too incriminating on there, have the spellcasters make some fake evidence
-[X] Find out her superiors and if they don't reach out, call them for a meeting. Make it clear what an abundant failure this project has been and how it will end in her town, effective immediately. Be willing to offer some insight for demon slaying and the like if they prove slightly amiable and have blackmail prepared for if they don't. That plus the public pressure generated from what's already been released.
--[X] Make it clear as a condition of this is that Maggie's career is dead and she's to face charges.

I thought I'd make a plan for how we plan on spinning things cause pretty much every plan does that anyways already. I don't think we really need to detain theme in that case and a lot of the Kill plans have us massacre them, which also feels too far.
 
Edifier said:
I like the Willowbot idea, to have Cyberwillow take over the initiative.
But keeping the others alive and detained makes me not like the plan. They're loose ends and loose lips, observing the execution, on top of keeping them alive is a drain on resources.
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I think killing them is even more risky. As long as we hold them there are ways to make sure that they would not tell anyone, like subverting some of them or making them sign magic bound contract.

On the other hand if we start to unnecessary kill people our own allies would become potential problems. Giles would be certainly against it, and unlike Oz he would not simply run out of town. At the very least he is capable to convince others including Willow and Xander that Buffy is not quite herself at the moment. Willow may be stronger at magic, but Giles still have a lot of authority as more older and experienced magic user.

Indivisible said:
I feel like inviting someone to a negotiation and then killing them will make people less likely to negotiate with us in the future.
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Sure. But while I initially voted for nonkilling plans, by now I consider them a lost cause (since they would need twice as much votes) and mostly switched to plans with less killing and more damage control. In particular I prefer plans that obscure Maggie fate to the ones that have us openly admit our crime to the government officials.

[X] Plan Lizard People without killing everyone

- not sure how our allies would like helping lizard people take over government

[X] Plan: Dismantled Initiative

-kinda want to take over initiative instead of destroying it

[X] Plan Full infiltration v2
-[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Dump Riley, Engleman, and Carlson in some warehouse under guard. Don't tell anyone outside City Government where they or Maggie are, just disappear them. Try to subvert some of them to your cause. Look for the magic that can make sure that they would keep silence on the events in the throne room. If there is no such magic or it is unreliable, aim for nonlethal disposing of them, like sending them in some other dimension. Make sure that most of your allies support your final decision on prisoners.
-[X]Create Maggie bot to replace Maggie and take over Initiative. Have CyberWillow take over any technology that can detect bot actual structure (like metal detectors) and falsify their readings.
-[X] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers. Convince Initiative backers that experimenting on demons is dead end as far as you are concerned and studies of advanced alien technologies is much more perspective direction. Squeeze as much funding from them as possible.
 
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Argh. I forgot about the double-weighting thing. Shit.

[X] Buffy has Maggie, Riley, and Engleman detained. Stunt what to do about them and the Initiative.
-[X] Riley seems the most reasonable of the bunch. Make him an offer to take control of the Initiative so they can search for any dangerous experiments Maggie was running and anything else that could be a threat to the city (and beyond). Use Maggie and his desire to make sure the program runs properly (and isn't just torn down by Buffy and friends) to help leverage that if need be. Offer some knowledge too, from what Giles and the Council might be able to lend, to help make things easier for the teams there. The Magic team might also be able to provide them with support, something the Initiative will be desperately lacking with all their supernatural assets now gone.
--[X] If he refuses, have Jonathon and Cyber Willow put together disguises to help sneak Buffy's people in. Disperse the personel from the base (come up with some excuse about 'paranatural containment breach' or something), seal it off, take all the data and weapons, and break everything else they can.
-[X] Have Maggie officially put down as being entered into a mental hospital, that's a lot harder to fight then charging her with a crime. If possible, do so actually too. A psychology professor claiming to be a secret military leader with a bunker underneath the campus and experimenting on demons sounds pretty crazy even by Sunnydale standards.

[X] Plan: Dismantled Initiative
[X] Plan Lizard People without killing everyone

I feel like we need to give the US government a way to save face by saying that it was 'a few bad apples' or giving them an opportunity to go after political rivals, because if it looks like we're threatening them, or if we've come up with a way to replace people and start taking over, they'll take it as an existential threat. We're not at the level of being able to make those kinds of threat yet.
 
[x] Plan PR Department
[X]Buffy lets her walk out, and immediately starts the propaganda campaign against her and any backers you can find. You may wish to stunt details.
-[X] Use any footage/recordings Cyber willow has to put Maggie in the worst light publicly, anything that shows her threatening unhinged, etc.
-[X] Reveal the military instalation and infiltration of soldiers as students to the campus and beyond.
-[X] Have a team infiltrate the base and scrub any positive signs of progress from her projects, while also gathering any details on the more classified - and worse looking - projects Maggie may have been working on, ready to reveal them to her superiors.
--[X] If there isn't anything too incriminating on there, have the spellcasters make some fake evidence
-[X] Find out her superiors and if they don't reach out, call them for a meeting. Make it clear what an abundant failure this project has been and how it will end in her town, effective immediately. Be willing to offer some insight for demon slaying and the like if they prove slightly amiable and have blackmail prepared for if they don't. That plus the public pressure generated from what's already been released.
--[X] Make it clear as a condition of this is that Maggie's career is dead and she's to face charges.
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I kinda like the sound of that. I think it hits the right points. If Maggie is a PR disaster and a costly failure whose only achievement was to flush money from her sponsors/superiors down the drain no one is going to lift a finger to shield her.

I am in favor of her being eventually committed to a mental hospital as a dangerous raving lunatic; it'd make people want to associate with her even less. We can destroy her without killing her on the spot. We don't need to keep her there; it'd be enough she has a history with the place.

Their base is defenseless before our machinations, and a hex or two can probably put Maggie on a downwards spiral, erratically trying to exercise her rapidly dwindling authority until it finally runs dry. An unhinged militaristic loon drunk with power and government funding and trying to make a career out of a wild goose chase while harassing honest taxpayers. If we can smear her with kidnapping and human experimentation allegations to sell the image, all the better.

Make it look like it's not just us who don't want her in our city, it's the voters. Which is probably true, given certain demographics of our voter base. The rest probably won't take kindly to the feds nabbing people off the streets to put them in cells either.

I'd make one caveat to the plan. There was never any demon slaying going on here. Make it so that anyone trying to bring the subject up again would be shunned as if they were a leper, and make Maggie a live demonstration of where that path leads.
 
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Maggie is irredeemable, refusing to face reality or her part in it. On the other hand, murdering her outright for insolence will tear the scoobies apart, not to mention screwing with Buffy's head; she's not someone who chooses to kill because it's the easiest option.

I'm in favor of spinning this to get rid of the Initiative, but we can't release Maggie to counter our spin or take desperate action.

[X] Plan Exile (steals from Plan PR Department)
-[X] Exile Maggie to a dead-end dimension where she spends quantity time with nature.
--[X] Fake the evidence that Adam killed her in an attempt to take over the Initiative.
--[X] Detain the others, and offer them the option to join Maggie or hold their peace. If they choose to stay, have CyberWillow surveil them, intercept their comms if they attempt to breach their agreement, and don't let them leave Sunnyvale.
--[X] See if the doctor is willing to cooperate, and keep eyes on her.

-[X] Buffy immediately starts the propaganda campaign against her and any backers you can find. You may wish to stunt details.
-[X] Use any footage/recordings Cyber willow has to put Maggie in the worst light publicly, anything that shows her threatening unhinged, etc.
-[X] Reveal the military instalation and infiltration of soldiers as students to the campus and beyond.
-[X] Have a team infiltrate the base and scrub any positive signs of progress from her projects, while also gathering any details on the more classified - and worse looking - projects Maggie may have been working on, ready to reveal them to her superiors.
--[X] If there isn't anything too incriminating on there, have the spellcasters make some fake evidence
-[X] Find out her superiors and if they don't reach out, call them for a meeting. Make it clear what an abundant failure this project has been and how it will end in her town, effective immediately. Be willing to offer some insight for demon slaying and the like if they prove slightly amiable and have blackmail prepared for if they don't. That plus the public pressure generated from what's already been released.
--[X] Make it clear as a condition of this is that Maggie's career is dead and she's to face charges.
 
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[x] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Disarm Finn with Buffy Superspeed. Then have our minions throw all four of them down the stairs into the golden light while Buffy watches from her throne.
-[X] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers.
-[X] Use this information to work with the Lizard People to discredit and remove the Initiative from Sunnydale (also possibly from life) and their backers from power and replace them with friendly Lizard People Politicians.
-[X] Form an agreement with the Lizard people that seccures Sunnydale and any dimensional gates in it firmly under Buffy's control in perpatuiry in exchange for her continuing support for their political control.
 
Looks like the winning plan will be to loot and vandalize their base, and let everyone go free without even trying to cover anything up nor try ransoming them back to the military.
 
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Lupercal said:
Nope the winning plan is still Lizard people and Moral Event Horizons
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From what I can see there is a KILL plan (Dismantled) with 7 people voting for it right now. I can't find a Lizard people plan with 7 people's worth of support but the tally is a complete disaster this time so you may want to point those 7 people out if I'm wrong.
 
DeAnno said:
From what I can see there is a KILL plan (Dismantled) with 7 people voting for it right now. I can't find a Lizard people plan with 7 people's worth of support but the tally is a complete disaster this time so you may want to point those 7 people out if I'm wrong.
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I'd misread that one as a detain plan sorry XD
Edit:
That said I'm not super happy with the way that Detain handles the USA goverment so I'm gunna stop approval voting it since it will still be beating Moral Event Horizon.
 
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