Successor (BTVS)

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[X] Buffy has Maggie, Riley, and Engleman detained. Stunt what to do about them and the Initiative.
-[X] Riley seems the most reasonable of the bunch. Make him an offer to take control of the Initiative so they can search for any dangerous experiments Maggie was running and anything else that could be a threat to the city (and beyond). Use Maggie and his desire to make sure the program runs properly (and isn't just torn down by Buffy and friends) to help leverage that if need be. Offer some knowledge too, from what Giles and the Council might be able to lend, to help make things easier for the teams there. The Magic team might also be able to provide them with support, something the Initiative will be desperately lacking with all their supernatural assets now gone.
--[X] If he refuses, have Jonathon and Cyber Willow put together disguises to help sneak Buffy's people in. Disperse the personel from the base (come up with some excuse about 'paranatural containment breach' or something), seal it off, take all the data and weapons, and break everything else they can.
-[X] Have Maggie officially put down as being entered into a mental hospital, that's a lot harder to fight then charging her with a crime. If possible, do so actually too. A psychology professor claiming to be a secret military leader with a bunker underneath the campus and experimenting on demons sounds pretty crazy even by Sunnydale standards.

Kinda disappointed we can't do "I don't think you appreciate the gravity of the situation" followed immediately by yeeting her into the stairs, but I guess that tracks with how steamed Buffy's feeling.
 
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[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Disarm Finn with Buffy Superspeed. Then have our minions throw all four of them down the stairs into the golden light while Buffy watches from her throne.
-[X] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers.
-[X] Use this information to work with the Lizard People to discredit and remove the Initiative from Sunnydale (also possibly from life) and their backers from power and replace them with friendly Lizard People Politicians.
-[X] Form an agreement with the Lizard people that seccures Sunnydale and any dimensional gates in it firmly under Buffy's control in perpatuiry in exchange for her continuing support for their political control.
Marlowe310811 said:
Kinda disappointed we can't do "I don't think you appreciate the gravity of the situation" followed immediately by yeeting her into the stairs, but I guess that tracks with how steamed Buffy's feeling.
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You can definitely stunt that. Or alternatively had the last vote been to follow the altered drusila plan that may very well have happened.

I find it entertaining that by refusing to loot the volcano place the people interested in looting it are pissed at us, and now Adam escaped to their turf. As opposed to getting money and making friends had we done it. Things seem to be in Adams favour, as usual.
Which naturally makes me think if we could wage war on them and loot them for being annoying.

[X] Plan Lizard People and Murder
[X] Plan Full infiltration v2
[X] Plan Put the Initiative In a Box
 
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[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Disarm Finn with Buffy Superspeed. Then have our minions throw all four of them down the stairs into the golden light while Buffy watches from her throne.
-[X] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers.
-[X] Use this information to work with the Lizard People to discredit and remove the Initiative from Sunnydale (also possibly from life) and their backers from power and replace them with friendly Lizard People Politicians.
-[X] Form an agreement with the Lizard people that seccures Sunnydale and any dimensional gates in it firmly under Buffy's control in perpatuiry in exchange for her continuing support for their political control.
 
[X] Buffy has Maggie, Riley, and Engleman detained. Stunt what to do about them and the Initiative.
-[X] Riley seems the most reasonable of the bunch. Make him an offer to take control of the Initiative so they can search for any dangerous experiments Maggie was running and anything else that could be a threat to the city (and beyond). Use Maggie and his desire to make sure the program runs properly (and isn't just torn down by Buffy and friends) to help leverage that if need be. Offer some knowledge too, from what Giles and the Council might be able to lend, to help make things easier for the teams there. The Magic team might also be able to provide them with support, something the Initiative will be desperately lacking with all their supernatural assets now gone.
--[X] If he refuses, have Jonathon and Cyber Willow put together disguises to help sneak Buffy's people in. Disperse the personel from the base (come up with some excuse about 'paranatural containment breach' or something), seal it off, take all the data and weapons, and break everything else they can.
-[X] Have Maggie officially put down as being entered into a mental hospital, that's a lot harder to fight then charging her with a crime. If possible, do so actually too. A psychology professor claiming to be a secret military leader with a bunker underneath the campus and experimenting on demons sounds pretty crazy even by Sunnydale standards.

We have a golden opportunity to expand our operations here - the Watchers have always been more of a neighborhood watch group, without any real chance of properly handling the vampire/demon problem. This leverage is the perfect chance to get some significant resources into protecting humanity, while being confident that the Slayer and her people are still in charge.
 
So Maggie seems too disconnected to actually work with and has to go. I just don't agree with the followup reptilian stuff. I think blackmail can still work for the most part once Maggie is out of the way. So we kill her and then demand new leadership and goals more aligned with long term survival than weaponization. If they can't follow through with this we dump a mix of real and fake blackmail into the world and watch their careers implode.



[X] Plan I Choose Violence
[X] Plan: Dismantled Initiative
 
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[X] Plan Put the Initiative In a Box
[X] Buffy has Maggie, Riley, and Engleman detained. Stunt what to do about them and the Initiative.
-[X] Dump Maggie, Riley, Engleman, and Carlson in some warehouse under guard. Don't tell anyone outside City Government where they are, just disappear them.
-[X] Any time other Initiative guys poke their heads out of their base, do the same thing with them. When Buffy thinks she can personally beat them all up and black bag them without having to kill any of them, she does so. Don't let any of them get out of town.
-[X] With Adam gone, Cyberwillow and Willow should be able to shut down electronic communications in and out of the base. They do so.
-[X] What're the feds going to do about it?
-[X] Willow and Cyberwillow create electronic evidence that the Initiative was experimenting on students and Sunnydale residents and release it. If the Feds come calling, the city tells them that Maggie was executed for risking dimensional stability and crimes against humanity, but offers to negotiate for prisoner release in exchange for the Initiative being disbanded and them not coming to Sunnydale again.

There's a difference between Riley realizing that Buffy could kill him as easily as turning over her hand and might well do so, and him effectively backing her over the US government. I really doubt he'd do it, and we just basically offered the work with us thing to the Initiative. Plus that's going to fill our ranks with moles.

Am mulling over changing this to a Kill Maggie vote, though.

Edit: Decided to present killing and non-killing versions of this plan.
 
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[X] Plan I Choose Violence
[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Dump Riley, Engleman, and Carlson in some warehouse under guard. Don't tell anyone outside City Government where they or Maggie are, just disappear them.
-[X] Any time other Initiative guys poke their heads out of their base, do the same thing with them. When Buffy thinks she can personally beat them all up and black bag them without having to kill any of them, she does so. Don't let any of them get out of town.
-[X] With Adam gone, Cyberwillow and Willow should be able to shut down electronic communications in and out of the base. They do so.
-[X] What're the feds going to do about it?
-[X] Willow and Cyberwillow create electronic evidence that the Initiative was experimenting on students and Sunnydale residents and release it. If the Feds come calling, the city tells them that Maggie was executed for risking dimensional stability and crimes against humanity, but offers to negotiate for prisoner release in exchange for the Initiative being disbanded and them not coming to Sunnydale again.

[X] Plan Put the Initiative In a Box
[X] Buffy has Maggie, Riley, and Engleman detained. Stunt what to do about them and the Initiative.
-[X] Dump Maggie, Riley, Engleman, and Carlson in some warehouse under guard. Don't tell anyone outside City Government where they are, just disappear them.
-[X] Any time other Initiative guys poke their heads out of their base, do the same thing with them. When Buffy thinks she can personally beat them all up and black bag them without having to kill any of them, she does so. Don't let any of them get out of town.
-[X] With Adam gone, Cyberwillow and Willow should be able to shut down electronic communications in and out of the base. They do so.
-[X] What're the feds going to do about it?
-[X] Willow and Cyberwillow create electronic evidence that the Initiative was experimenting on students and Sunnydale residents and release it. If the Feds come calling, the city offers to negotiate for prisoner release in exchange for the Initiative being disbanded and them not coming to Sunnydale again.

Edit: Decided to present killing and non-killing versions of this plan.
 
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[X] Plan Lizard People without killing everyone
[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Disarm Finn with Buffy Superspeed. Then detain him aand the rest of the Initiative present and have them give testimony to Maggie's disconnection from reality.
-[X] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers.
-[X] Use this information to work with the Lizard People to discredit and remove the Initiative from Sunnydale (also possibly from life) and their backers from power and replace them with friendly Lizard People Politicians.
-[X] Form an agreement with the Lizard people that seccures Sunnydale and any dimensional gates in it firmly under Buffy's control in perpatuiry in exchange for her continuing support for their political control.

[X] Plan Lizard People and Murder
[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Kill Finn with Buffy Superspeed. Harmony assumes we are killing all of them and throws Oscar down the stairs. Simply detain the doctor and offer him a new job.
-[X] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers.
-[X] Use this information to work with the Lizard People to discredit and remove the Initiative from Sunnydale (also possibly from life) and their backers from power and replace them with friendly Lizard People Politicians.
-[X] Form an agreement with the Lizard people that seccures Sunnydale and any dimensional gates in it firmly under Buffy's control in perpatuiry in exchange for her continuing support for their political control.

[] Plan Lizard People and Moral Event Horizons
[] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[] Disarm Finn with Buffy Superspeed. Then have our minions throw all four of them down the stairs into the golden light while Buffy watches from her throne.
-[] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers.
-[] Use this information to work with the Lizard People to discredit and remove the Initiative from Sunnydale (also possibly from life) and their backers from power and replace them with friendly Lizard People Politicians.
-[] Form an agreement with the Lizard people that seccures Sunnydale and any dimensional gates in it firmly under Buffy's control in perpatuiry in exchange for her continuing support for their political control.

[] Plan: Dismantled Initiative
 
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[X] Plan Lizard People without killing everyone

The less people we kill the more of our allies will stay on our side through it. Although I would have preferred to keep quiet about Maggie fate as long as possible. Maybe have Willow bot or one of Lizard People replace her.

[X] Plan Full infiltration
[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Dump Riley, Engleman, and Carlson in some warehouse under guard. Don't tell anyone outside City Government where they or Maggie are, just disappear them.
-[X]Create Maggie bot to replace Maggie and take over Initiative. Have CyberWillow take over any technology that can detect bot actual structure (like metal detectors) and falsify their readings.
-[X] Use Willow and Cyber Willow to obtain data on illegal activities and dubious experiments conducted by the Initiative and their backers. Work with Lizard people on removing them from power.
 
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Why are people so pro-killing Maggie though? Even threatening to kill her lost on the last vote, instead we threatened blackmail. Why not just follow through on that here? She's a bit more delusional than I thought going in, but how much does that change things?

I mean, I'm a bit pro-killing Maggie because I feel like for actual power projection we've been overusing CW and underusing Buffy, and because I don't like the plans that involve breaking masquerade or getting in bed with the lizards when we barely know what their deal is and want to push a plan that benefits from double voting, but I'm curious to hear why other people are so pro-killing here?

Also - I am against Harmony killing anyone, I think that's a potential trap. I especially do not want her deciding when and where to kill people. She is not going to be good at it and it could potentially introduce unnecessary issues.
 
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[X] Buffy has Maggie, Riley, and Engleman detained. Stunt what to do about them and the Initiative.
-[X] Riley seems the most reasonable of the bunch. Make him an offer to take control of the Initiative so they can search for any dangerous experiments Maggie was running and anything else that could be a threat to the city (and beyond). Use Maggie and his desire to make sure the program runs properly (and isn't just torn down by Buffy and friends) to help leverage that if need be. Offer some knowledge too, from what Giles and the Council might be able to lend, to help make things easier for the teams there. The Magic team might also be able to provide them with support, something the Initiative will be desperately lacking with all their supernatural assets now gone.
--[X] If he refuses, have Jonathon and Cyber Willow put together disguises to help sneak Buffy's people in. Disperse the personel from the base (come up with some excuse about 'paranatural containment breach' or something), seal it off, take all the data and weapons, and break everything else they can.
-[X] Have Maggie officially put down as being entered into a mental hospital, that's a lot harder to fight then charging her with a crime. If possible, do so actually too. A psychology professor claiming to be a secret military leader with a bunker underneath the campus and experimenting on demons sounds pretty crazy even by Sunnydale standards.
 
[X] Plan I Choose Violence
[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Dump Riley, Engleman, and Carlson in some warehouse under guard. Don't tell anyone outside City Government where they or Maggie are, just disappear them.
-[X] Any time other Initiative guys poke their heads out of their base, do the same thing with them. When Buffy thinks she can personally beat them all up and black bag them without having to kill any of them, she does so. Don't let any of them get out of town.
-[X] With Adam gone, Cyberwillow and Willow should be able to shut down electronic communications in and out of the base. They do so.
-[X] What're the feds going to do about it?
-[X] Willow and Cyberwillow create electronic evidence that the Initiative was experimenting on students and Sunnydale residents and release it. If the Feds come calling, the city tells them that Maggie was executed for risking dimensional stability and crimes against humanity, but offers to negotiate for prisoner release in exchange for the Initiative being disbanded and them not coming to Sunnydale again.

Approval vote:

[X] Plan: Dismantled Initiative
-[X] Buffy kills Maggie on the spot. Stunt how you handle the other two.
-[X] Detain the other two.
-[X] Have CyberWillow and Jonathon help a team sneak into the Initiative disguised as Maggie and the others. Take all the data they can, come up with an excuse to drive most of the Initiative out of the base (maybe a paranormal containment breach or the like), then seal off the base. Take some weapons, wreck anything else, break apart the base until it's as useless as they can feasibly make it, then leave.
-[X] Apologize for how things went down with Maggie but point out that she was a serious threat to the safety of the entire city and possibly planet with her schemes and ignorance. And point out that none of this can be proved and the Mayor's office has miles of evidence on their own illegal activities (as well as showing a bit of how bad those plans they uncovered were) if they threaten to bring the military down on the town or anything else foolish. Then let them go.
 
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Buffy has also never been one for cold-blooded murder. Threats, sure. But right now Maggie doesn't pose any physical threat to us, and only thinks she can accomplish anything at all to harm the Scoobies. The law can keep her under control.
 
Yeah. Do we really need to kill Maggie? She's annoying, in way over her head, and is too willing to having all the force in her favor, but she's hardly a threat to us. Physically or otherwise. The reason why she's constantly making these threats about arresting us 'but being able to clear everything if we just join the Initiative' is that she knows she has nothing. She's lost all her supernatural assets for defending the base and proving her worth to the military higher ups. We can detain her and tear apart the base however we please (or incorporate it into our forces if Riley/some others can be convinced).
 
Killing Maggie is also bad pragmatically, because unlike our other victims, she is a government employee/contractor, and a lot of people would ask questions about her disappearance/death.
 
I like the Willowbot idea, to have Cyberwillow take over the initiative.
But keeping the others alive and detained makes me not like the plan. They're loose ends and loose lips, observing the execution, on top of keeping them alive is a drain on resources.
 
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Ct613hulu said:
I think that this course of action would very likely lead to some kind of internal rebellion or attempt to "free" Buffy from corrupting influences by her more moral followers.
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...how many of those do we have left in our inner circle? There is Xander and... Xander.

Maybe Giles, but the man can show remarkable flexibility when it comes to people endangering the world. Mom, definitely, but Buffy isn't on talking terms with her and it isn't something she'd take to her ever if she were.

I find it one of the most amusing plotlines of the quest that our closest allies have become Willow, Willow (cyber) and Harmony, all with rather interesting views on moral issues. Oh, and Cynthia! Amy, too, when it concerns foreign politics. Even Xander has Anya to balance him out.

Anyone who would object are giving jumping this ship a good consideration.
 
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Lupercal said:
For what it's worth I really do think Plan I Choose Violence is underestimating the Federal Government.
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Definitely. I know killing Maggie seems tempting, but in the long term this is just going to create massive problems for us. The federal government/military isn't going to take this lying down, no matter how many scandals Cyber/Willow can churn out. They're going to react poorly to us killing Maggie, despite how incompetent she's been.

And she really has been. All of her supernatural assets are gone. The favors she called in to keep Faith on board with a tracker? Gone to the wind. Claims about vampire soldiers? As good as dust. And nothing to show for Adam. We see how desperate she is, demanding the parts of Adam back, trying to pressure Buffy into joining everytime she threatened us... She's got nothing to show for her projects and she knows it. Certainly not enough to call in an invasion of the town with little to no evidence (and anything they do have would implicate them as much or more than us).

That's why I think we should detain them. The military isn't going to call in a strike on the town from the word of a discraced and derranged scientist... but if we kill her and start trying to blackmail them, they might. Let's either get the initiative working under Riley, or if he won't play ball, trash the operation and move on. They might not be happy about that either, but with little evidence and no real results so far, I can see them willing to call the whole thing a wash.
 
hailcapital said:
Why are people so pro-killing Maggie though? Even threatening to kill her lost on the last vote, instead we threatened blackmail. Why not just follow through on that here? She's a bit more delusional than I thought going in, but how much does that change things?
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I made the blackmail plan, and the reason I am turning to killing Maggie is that I expected her to be a bit more aware of reality. I didn't actually expect her to cave to the demands I included in the plan, but I thought she would know she had suffered a serious loss and would negotiate.

Instead she says we 'get to gloat' about beating her, but also have to give her everything she wants and spend our resources reforming her monster. She shows no evidence that if she had another piece of Olvikan she wouldn't roll out another corrupting god monster for us to deal with, and just generally seems to think that Buffy is a spoiled girl that is doing this for kudos while Maggie does serious work. I don't think this is an attitude that will ever change at this point, and frankly even if it could I'd rather not deal with it past this update.

Also, she threatened Harmony, threatened to have us arrested, and also threatened to invade the city. Fuck her.

Blueshift said:
Have Maggie officially put down as being entered into a mental hospital, that's a lot harder to fight then charging her with a crime. If possible, do so actually too. A psychology professor claiming to be a secret military leader with a bunker underneath the campus and experimenting on demons sounds pretty crazy even by Sunnydale standards.
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Maggie teaches classes on psychology and is part of a black ops military operation. She isn't going to spew crazy sounding theories at a medical doctor, she is just going to talk her way out of this. There really isn't any upside to putting her in a place she might be able to talk her way out of and is on the record of being at, compared to just locking her in some emptied out black site we set up.

Forcible detainment at an asylum is also something Buffy has had done to her, and that is very likely to cause her stress and make this entire situation worse.

Finally I think the lizardmen are frankly too local to actually do the work that Lupercal wants out of them. They are based around the hellmouth, not in DC. I'm reasonably sure that through Cyberwillow we have quite a bit more national reach and ability to affect change in DC than the lizardmen do with their representatives from one state. Replacing people requires quite a bit more information than I suspect they have, and if they ever get replaced their assurances of Buffy's control provided by the government goes up in smoke.
 
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mc2rpg said:
Maggie teaches classes on psychology and is part of a black ops military operation. She isn't going to spew crazy sounding theories at a medical doctor, she is just going to talk her way out of this. There really isn't any upside to putting her in a place she might be able to talk her way out of and is on the record of being at, compared to just locking her in some emptied out black site we set up.

Forcible detainment at an asylum is also something Buffy has had done to her, and that is very likely to cause her stress and make this entire situation worse.
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Is that the big issue with my plan? We don't have to actually put her there, we could just hold her in a safehouse for a bit too. My main point is that killing her will create major problems in the long term.
 
mc2rpg said:
No, the big issue is that Maggie lives, but its an issue that I think causes problems if your plan goes through.
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Because you assume that all the higher ups will instantly follow her and go along with her to drastic measures after everything she's built (and they've funded) despite all her obvious failures. While you want to blackmail them and assume the federal government will just roll over.
 
Blueshift said:
Because you assume that all the higher ups will instantly follow her and go along with her to drastic measures after everything she's built (and they've funded) despite all her obvious failures. While you want to blackmail them and assume the federal government will just roll over.
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I think people want to protect their careers and reputations, and that we can absolutely ruin those things for them. I don't think the entire federal government rolls over, because the entire federal government doesn't know this is a thing. I think a table full of old dudes running a secret government weapons program would roll over to avoid being dragged kicking and screaming into the public eye and coated with (real or made up) criminal acts that they can't disprove.
 
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