The Singers-Rachni Quest (Mass Effect with XCOM elements)

[2] Expansion of the fleet - In the interstellar age, a species is only as dangerous as its Void-Navy. Hulls and Guns equal power, and with a whole galaxy hostile to you, having a sword with which to keep them at bay will be vital sooner or later. Best to make it one big sword while you have the time.

[1] Expansion of military infrastructure - A sword is only as good as the sheath to stop it in, or the stone to sharpen it. Your fleets and armies will need shipyards to conduct repairs, refits, and expansions, resupply points, housing for their troops and crew, and an industry dedicated to producing the materials needed to keep everything running smoothly. All of that takes resources, resources that cannot be easily retooled for other purposes.

[4] Expansion of planetary defences - One of the Rachni's greatest strengths has always been their ability to fortify their worlds-having the majority of their infrastructure located in underground hives certainly makes taking them much harder than invading biped worlds. But often, more dedicated defences are called for. Bunkers, bases, anti-orbital mass accelerators, GUARDIAN turret arrays-all of these and more will be needed to protect Hallownest and the other colonies in the event of the worst.

[3] Expansion of ground forces - In the days of the Old Empire, the Rachni were terrors in the field of surface warfare, unmatched by anything the Citadel could muster until the Krogan entered the war, and absolute hell to dig out once entrenched. Though newcomers like the Turians and Humans likely make the field slightly more even nowadays, that is an advantage you very much still hold. Best to be prepared to exploit it.

This I can get behind, let us build the foundations from which our fleets will spring. I am trying to think what will help against the general galaxy and what will help against the reapers.
 
umm, are you guys sure that focus on offense is really a good idea all of these options are important but as we are now and even in the future won't we be heavily outnumbered and outgunned in most cases?

I would think that setting up heavy system/planet defenses would be a better option given the fact that if we bulk up enough we can have a better chance to starve off an enemy fleet while more than likely building our own after all unless we need a really rare material we can get most of what we need in the system right?

in conclusion, why is defense last in most of your votes?
 
[X] (Grand Ambition) "We the Ranchi had been slaves many times, slaves to the Protheans as War Thralls, Slaves to the Sour Note, and we were almost enslaved again by the Sour Note once more...no...we Ranchi wish for freedom, to not be slaves...and the Song may hold the key as the Singers reach deep with the power of the song (psionics)...perhaps one day we shall find the answer to ensure our freedom from Slavery."
[X] (Feelings towards non-rachni) Fascinating new perspectives and sounding boards. Sources of inspiration.
[X] (Unique Cultural Practices) Ritualistic Replacement Ceremonies - Grand Catalogue of Iterations - Planned Decay
[X] (Beliefs and Philosophy) Whatever you do, do it well.
[X] Swarm: Military hardware is designed to be as cheap and reliable as possible to outfit massive numbers of troops and ships as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter if the enemy's Dreadnought can kill 4 of your cruisers before they get in range if it's fighting 12 of them at once.
[X] Carrier - Carriers are a very new concept to naval warfare that you are amazed the Rachni never thought of before. Introduced by the System's Alliance, capital-class fighter-carriers are more flexible and less overtly threatening than conventional dreadnoughts and mesh exceptionally well with the (historically) highly effective Rachni strike craft. This entirely theoretical doctrine shares the balanced doctrine's numerical disposition ratios but would focus the Fleets on supporting and protecting Fleet and Patrol carriers, which would almost entirely replace Dreadnoughts within the line-of-battle as heavy damage dealers, with other vessels devoted to screening them from attack by enemy cruisers and dreadnoughts.

[2] Expansion of the fleet - In the interstellar age, a species is only as dangerous as its Void-Navy. Hulls and Guns equal power, and with a whole galaxy hostile to you, having a sword with which to keep them at bay will be vital sooner or later. Best to make it one big sword while you have the time.

[1] Expansion of military infrastructure - A sword is only as good as the sheath to stop it in, or the stone to sharpen it. Your fleets and armies will need shipyards to conduct repairs, refits, and expansions, resupply points, housing for their troops and crew, and an industry dedicated to producing the materials needed to keep everything running smoothly. All of that takes resources, resources that cannot be easily retooled for other purposes.

[4] Expansion of planetary defences - One of the Rachni's greatest strengths has always been their ability to fortify their worlds-having the majority of their infrastructure located in underground hives certainly makes taking them much harder than invading biped worlds. But often, more dedicated defences are called for. Bunkers, bases, anti-orbital mass accelerators, GUARDIAN turret arrays-all of these and more will be needed to protect Hallownest and the other colonies in the event of the worst.

[3] Expansion of ground forces - In the days of the Old Empire, the Rachni were terrors in the field of surface warfare, unmatched by anything the Citadel could muster until the Krogan entered the war, and absolute hell to dig out once entrenched. Though newcomers like the Turians and Humans likely make the field slightly more even nowadays, that is an advantage you very much still hold. Best to be prepared to exploit it.
 
[X] Swarm: Military hardware is designed to be as cheap and reliable as possible to outfit massive numbers of troops and ships as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter if the enemy's Dreadnought can kill 4 of your cruisers before they get in range if it's fighting 12 of them at once.
[X] Carrier - Carriers are a very new concept to naval warfare that you are amazed the Rachni never thought of before. Introduced by the System's Alliance, capital-class fighter-carriers are more flexible and less overtly threatening than conventional dreadnoughts and mesh exceptionally well with the (historically) highly effective Rachni strike craft. This entirely theoretical doctrine shares the balanced doctrine's numerical disposition ratios but would focus the Fleets on supporting and protecting Fleet and Patrol carriers, which would almost entirely replace Dreadnoughts within the line-of-battle as heavy damage dealers, with other vessels devoted to screening them from attack by enemy cruisers and dreadnoughts.

No strong opinion on the other stuff (or perhaps more accurately, I don't trust myself with them), but I think Swarm + Carrier is the best doctrine for the Rachni.
 
How good would carriers be against the reapers, though? Do we even know how to make bombers capable of taking out a reaper?
 
[2] Expansion of the fleet
[1] Expansion of military infrastructure
[4] Expansion of planetary defences
[3] Expansion of ground forces
[X] Swarm
[X] Carrier

Guys, come on! Carrier swarms, holy shit. Blot out the skies with sheer numbers. This would be a unique doctrine for the Rachni to fill in the wars to come, no one does this anymore, not even the Krogan. Even if the genophage is cured, they don't have it in them to go back to this. This is something we can do that no one else can match, and with carriers it'll transcend to a level unseen in galactic history. We have to. It'll be so cool.

I think it would really shine in coordination with the Geth, who do the opposite. We could balance each other out.

[X] (Grand Ambition) To spread the song of peace and freedom across the galaxy. Never shall we be made slaves again, and never shall we tolerate those who would enslave others. The Rachni shall be the ally of the downtrodden and oppressed wherever they may be found.
[X] (Feelings towards non-rachni) The new Rachni desire peace and harmony as they have not had in the past. Always the weapon of another, for once let us have good relations with other species.
[] (Unique Cultural Practices) Write-In or up to 3
[X] (Beliefs and Philosophy) Harmony (The universe is a grand song without end, in which all beings have a place and purpose of their own.)

I have no idea for cultural practices, that's getting into the weeds. Anyway, Rachni as the great abolitionists of the galaxy.

Let us die to make men free.
 
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[X] Plan: Freedom and Justice.
[2] Expansion of the fleet - In the interstellar age, a species is only as dangerous as its Void-Navy. Hulls and Guns equal power, and with a whole galaxy hostile to you, having a sword with which to keep them at bay will be vital sooner or later. Best to make it one big sword while you have the time.

[1] Expansion of military infrastructure - A sword is only as good as the sheath to stop it in, or the stone to sharpen it. Your fleets and armies will need shipyards to conduct repairs, refits, and expansions, resupply points, housing for their troops and crew, and an industry dedicated to producing the materials needed to keep everything running smoothly. All of that takes resources, resources that cannot be easily retooled for other purposes.

[3] Expansion of planetary defences - One of the Rachni's greatest strengths has always been their ability to fortify their worlds-having the majority of their infrastructure located in underground hives certainly makes taking them much harder than invading biped worlds. But often, more dedicated defences are called for. Bunkers, bases, anti-orbital mass accelerators, GUARDIAN turret arrays-all of these and more will be needed to protect Hallownest and the other colonies in the event of the worst.

[4] Expansion of ground forces - In the days of the Old Empire, the Rachni were terrors in the field of surface warfare, unmatched by anything the Citadel could muster until the Krogan entered the war, and absolute hell to dig out once entrenched. Though newcomers like the Turians and Humans likely make the field slightly more even nowadays, that is an advantage you very much still hold. Best to be prepared to exploit it.


[X] (Grand Ambition) To spread the song of peace and freedom across the galaxy. Never shall we be made slaves again, and never shall we tolerate those who would enslave others. The Rachni shall be the ally of the downtrodden and oppressed wherever they may be found.
[X] (Feelings towards non-rachni) The new Rachni desire peace and harmony as they have not had in the past. Always the weapon of another, for once let us have good relations with other species.
[] (Unique Cultural Practices) Write-In or up to 3
[X] (Beliefs and Philosophy) Harmony (The universe is a grand song without end, in which all beings have a place and purpose of their own.)

[X] Elite: Every piece of equipment is top-of-the-line, every ship is a masterwork of precision engineering, every soldier is a well-trained specialist. You hit like a dreadnought and take a hit like one too, but hopefully, you won't have to do so in too many places at once.
Past/Present users: Asari Republics, Salarian Union, Geth Consensus
+Tech (Fleets and Armies count as one Tech level above your Civ. Tech Level)
-Numbers (Fleets and Armies count as one Magnitude below their listed magnitude)

[X] Carrier - Carriers are a very new concept to naval warfare that you are amazed the Rachni never thought of before. Introduced by the System's Alliance, capital-class fighter-carriers are more flexible and less overtly threatening than conventional dreadnoughts and mesh exceptionally well with the (historically) highly effective Rachni strike craft. This entirely theoretical doctrine shares the balanced doctrine's numerical disposition ratios but would focus the Fleets on supporting and protecting Fleet and Patrol carriers, which would almost entirely replace Dreadnoughts within the line-of-battle as heavy damage dealers, with other vessels devoted to screening them from attack by enemy cruisers and dreadnoughts.
 
[X]Culture Plan: The Singers
-[X] (Grand Ambition) A Universe of Song
--[X] The Rachni deeply regret the horrifying silence they inflicted upon so many while in thrall to the sour yellow note. They wish to once again spread and thrive, but this time, they wish to help every voice in the universe raise in harmonious, variegated song, and to exterminate the sour yellow note wherever it is found.
-[X] (Feelings towards non-rachni) Sorrow and regret, for the silence inflicted. Some fear, for a price that may yet come due. Burning curiousity at the plethora of new and wondrous songs, and hope that the Rachni may one day harmonize.
-[X] (Unique Cultural Practices)
--[X] (Shamelessly stolen from divided loyalties) The Echo: Information, stories and memories are constantly sung back and forth between the Rachni, to preserve the Rachni's racial memory.
--[X] sneak sneak: The Brothers, two of the first Rachni born in this re-awakening, have a love of stealth games; frequently dimming their songs to the barest whisper before attempting to ambush each other, animals, and any Rachni hapless enough to be in their path. Many young soldier and worker Rachni have decided to emulate the Brothers in these games.
--[X] Preppers: The Rachni are well aware of how precarious their existence is. Being reduced to one queen has left the Rachni with a determination to never find themselves in such desperate straits again. Safety margins, diversification, redundancy - the Rachni always have a fall-back plan.
[X] (Beliefs and Philosophy) Symphony: Good is found in as many and as varied voices as can be found, singing in willing symphony.

[2] Expansion of the fleet
[1] Expansion of military infrastructure
[3] Expansion of planetary defences
[4] Expansion of ground forces
 
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[2] Expansion of the fleet - In the interstellar age, a species is only as dangerous as its Void-Navy. Hulls and Guns equal power, and with a whole galaxy hostile to you, having a sword with which to keep them at bay will be vital sooner or later. Best to make it one big sword while you have the time.

[1] Expansion of military infrastructure - A sword is only as good as the sheath to stop it in, or the stone to sharpen it. Your fleets and armies will need shipyards to conduct repairs, refits, and expansions, resupply points, housing for their troops and crew, and an industry dedicated to producing the materials needed to keep everything running smoothly. All of that takes resources, resources that cannot be easily retooled for other purposes.

[4] Expansion of planetary defences - One of the Rachni's greatest strengths has always been their ability to fortify their worlds-having the majority of their infrastructure located in underground hives certainly makes taking them much harder than invading biped worlds. But often, more dedicated defences are called for. Bunkers, bases, anti-orbital mass accelerators, GUARDIAN turret arrays-all of these and more will be needed to protect Hallownest and the other colonies in the event of the worst.

[3] Expansion of ground forces - In the days of the Old Empire, the Rachni were terrors in the field of surface warfare, unmatched by anything the Citadel could muster until the Krogan entered the war, and absolute hell to dig out once entrenched. Though newcomers like the Turians and Humans likely make the field slightly more even nowadays, that is an advantage you very much still hold. Best to be prepared to exploit it.
 
[2] Expansion of the fleet
[1] Expansion of military infrastructure
[4] Expansion of planetary defences
[3] Expansion of ground forces
[X] Swarm: Military hardware is designed to be as cheap and reliable as possible to outfit massive numbers of troops and ships as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter if the enemy's Dreadnought can kill 4 of your cruisers before they get in range if it's fighting 12 of them at once.
[X] Carrier - Carriers are a very new concept to naval warfare that you are amazed the Rachni never thought of before. Introduced by the System's Alliance, capital-class fighter-carriers are more flexible and less overtly threatening than conventional dreadnoughts and mesh exceptionally well with the (historically) highly effective Rachni strike craft. This entirely theoretical doctrine shares the balanced doctrine's numerical disposition ratios but would focus the Fleets on supporting and protecting Fleet and Patrol carriers, which would almost entirely replace Dreadnoughts within the line-of-battle as heavy damage dealers, with other vessels devoted to screening them from attack by enemy cruisers and dreadnoughts.

I honestly do agree that this would be a cool idea to try out: Blot out the sun, flood the planet with our numbers!

As for our cultural options, There's a lot of good ones I'd want to pick, so I'm just gonna see what ends up winning on that front.
 
umm, are you guys sure that focus on offense is really a good idea all of these options are important but as we are now and even in the future won't we be heavily outnumbered and outgunned in most cases?

I would think that setting up heavy system/planet defenses would be a better option given the fact that if we bulk up enough we can have a better chance to starve off an enemy fleet while more than likely building our own after all unless we need a really rare material we can get most of what we need in the system right?

in conclusion, why is defense last in most of your votes?
Because if a hostile force reaches our system through all the Geth lines, we've already lost.
 
[X]Culture Plan: The Singers
-[X] (Grand Ambition) A Universe of Song
--[X] The Rachni deeply regret the horrifying silence they inflicted upon so many while in thrall to the sour yellow note. They wish to once again spread and thrive, but this time, they wish to help every voice in the universe raise in harmonious, variegated song, and to exterminate the sour yellow note wherever it is found.
-[X] (Feelings towards non-rachni) Sorrow and regret, for the silence inflicted. Some fear, for a price that may yet come due. Burning curiousity at the plethora of new and wondrous songs, and hope that the Rachni may one day harmonize.
-[X] (Unique Cultural Practices)
--[X] (Shamelessly stolen from divided loyalties) The Echo: Information, stories and memories are constantly sung back and forth between the Rachni, to preserve the Rachni's racial memory.
--[X] sneak sneak: The Brothers, two of the first Rachni born in this re-awakening, have a love of stealth games; frequently dimming their songs to the barest whisper before attempting to ambush each other, animals, and any Rachni hapless enough to be in their path. Many young soldier and worker Rachni have decided to emulate the Brothers in these games.
--[X] Preppers: The Rachni are well aware of how precarious their existence is. Being reduced to one queen has left the Rachni with a determination to never find themselves in such desperate straits again. Safety margins, diversification, redundancy - the Rachni always have a fall-back plan.
[X] (Beliefs and Philosophy) Symphony: Good is found in as many and as varied voices as can be found, singing in willing symphony.
 
[3] Expansion of the fleet
[1] Expansion of military infrastructure
[2] Expansion of planetary defences
[4] Expansion of ground forces

[X] Balanced
[X] Top Heavy

Are carriers actually effective against reaper? We saw at Sovereign he just took shots from cruisers and it didn't bother him. This is the advantage of dreadnoughts because the reaper have to get relatively close to fire their weapon. don't know how effective our bombers would be. Especially against tens of thousands of oculi.
The Reapers are a swarm themselves, but much, much stronger. I don't think our fleets have the strength to compete against Reaper. When we use the swarm tactic
 
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[X] (Grand Ambition) To exist, to learn, and to develop the Chorus. Time and opportunity shall all the Chorus to develop into an ever greater vibrance, aided if possible by our allies' cooperation and contributions. Perfection is impossible, such is the nature of existence, but with time and the inclusion of new perspectives, we can continue to learn and improve.
[X] (Feelings towards non-rachni) Curiosity. How do non-Singers live their lives, so divorced from the nature of the Rachni?
[X] (Beliefs and Philosophy) Learning

[2] Expansion of the fleet - In the interstellar age, a species is only as dangerous as its Void-Navy. Hulls and Guns equal power, and with a whole galaxy hostile to you, having a sword with which to keep them at bay will be vital sooner or later. Best to make it one big sword while you have the time.
[3] Expansion of military infrastructure - A sword is only as good as the sheath to stop it in, or the stone to sharpen it. Your fleets and armies will need shipyards to conduct repairs, refits, and expansions, resupply points, housing for their troops and crew, and an industry dedicated to producing the materials needed to keep everything running smoothly. All of that takes resources, resources that cannot be easily retooled for other purposes.
[4] Expansion of planetary defences - One of the Rachni's greatest strengths has always been their ability to fortify their worlds-having the majority of their infrastructure located in underground hives certainly makes taking them much harder than invading biped worlds. But often, more dedicated defences are called for. Bunkers, bases, anti-orbital mass accelerators, GUARDIAN turret arrays-all of these and more will be needed to protect Hallownest and the other colonies in the event of the worst.
[1] Expansion of ground forces - In the days of the Old Empire, the Rachni were terrors in the field of surface warfare, unmatched by anything the Citadel could muster until the Krogan entered the war, and absolute hell to dig out once entrenched. Though newcomers like the Turians and Humans likely make the field slightly more even nowadays, that is an advantage you very much still hold. Best to be prepared to exploit it.

[X] Elite

The people we're gearing up to fight (the Reapers, and incidentally the Citadel/Terminus if they come after us) are far too suited to turn swarm-style tactics against us. They have the benefit of much better technology, and have records of how to fight the Old Rachni (the Citadel) or are simply better at swarm tactics (the Reapers). Also swarms mean more chances for our soldiers to be captured and turned against us.

[X] Light
[X] Top Heavy

Carrier/strikecraft tactics always felt vaguely suicidal in Mass Effect, where literally everyone has pinpoint-accurate laser point-defence systems slaved to dumb-AI that are programmed specifically to shoot good. This isn't Star Wars.
 
[2] Expansion of the fleet
[1] Expansion of military infrastructure
[4] Expansion of planetary defences
[3] Expansion of ground forces
[X] Swarm: Military hardware is designed to be as cheap and reliable as possible to outfit massive numbers of troops and ships as quickly as possible. It doesn't matter if the enemy's Dreadnought can kill 4 of your cruisers before they get in range if it's fighting 12 of them at once.
[X] Carrier - Carriers are a very new concept to naval warfare that you are amazed the Rachni never thought of before. Introduced by the System's Alliance, capital-class fighter-carriers are more flexible and less overtly threatening than conventional dreadnoughts and mesh exceptionally well with the (historically) highly effective Rachni strike craft. This entirely theoretical doctrine shares the balanced doctrine's numerical disposition ratios but would focus the Fleets on supporting and protecting Fleet and Patrol carriers, which would almost entirely replace Dreadnoughts within the line-of-battle as heavy damage dealers, with other vessels devoted to screening them from attack by enemy cruisers and dreadnoughts.
 
[X] (Grand Ambition) "We the Ranchi had been slaves many times, slaves to the Protheans as War Thralls, Slaves to the Sour Note, and we were almost enslaved again by the Sour Note once more...no...we Ranchi wish for freedom, to not be slaves...and the Song may hold the key as the Singers reach deep with the power of the song (psionics)...perhaps one day we shall find the answer to ensure our freedom from Slavery."
[X] (Feelings towards non-rachni) Fascinating new perspectives and sounding boards. Sources of inspiration.
[X] (Unique Cultural Practices) Ritualistic Replacement Ceremonies - Grand Catalogue of Iterations - Planned Decay
[X] (Beliefs and Philosophy) Whatever you do, do it well.

[X] Balanced
[X] Top Heavy

[2] Expansion of the fleet - In the interstellar age, a species is only as dangerous as its Void-Navy. Hulls and Guns equal power, and with a whole galaxy hostile to you, having a sword with which to keep them at bay will be vital sooner or later. Best to make it one big sword while you have the time.

[1] Expansion of military infrastructure - A sword is only as good as the sheath to stop it in, or the stone to sharpen it. Your fleets and armies will need shipyards to conduct repairs, refits, and expansions, resupply points, housing for their troops and crew, and an industry dedicated to producing the materials needed to keep everything running smoothly. All of that takes resources, resources that cannot be easily retooled for other purposes.

[4] Expansion of planetary defences - One of the Rachni's greatest strengths has always been their ability to fortify their worlds-having the majority of their infrastructure located in underground hives certainly makes taking them much harder than invading biped worlds. But often, more dedicated defences are called for. Bunkers, bases, anti-orbital mass accelerators, GUARDIAN turret arrays-all of these and more will be needed to protect Hallownest and the other colonies in the event of the worst.

[3] Expansion of ground forces - In the days of the Old Empire, the Rachni were terrors in the field of surface warfare, unmatched by anything the Citadel could muster until the Krogan entered the war, and absolute hell to dig out once entrenched. Though newcomers like the Turians and Humans likely make the field slightly more even nowadays, that is an advantage you very much still hold. Best to be prepared to exploit it.
 
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I would caution against choosing an option that leaves Rachni fleets with a tech disadvantage. In support of my concerns I would like to point to the Thanix cannon which can match the firepower of a cruiser equipped with a more traditional mass accelerator yet still be small enough to fit aboard a frigate or more relevantly, a fighter.

That is an insane leap in capability and it highlights the dangers of not keeping up technologically with the other powers. It's a lot harder to bury a dreadnought in cruisers when the enemy's escorting fighters hit as hard as your cruisers.
 
My main issue with the swarm/carrier combo isn't the lack of tech - simple, reliable and plentiful is a tried-and-true war strategy. Just look at the AK-47, or american vs german tanks in ww2.

No, it's that the Rachni aren't a single mind, they're many minds which are psychically connected. They may be more insulated against morale losses due to casualties, but we've already seen through the queen that they can get attached to individual Rachni, and that means they're not immune.

Basically, I worry that Swarm/Carrier would incur massive casualties that would cause significant emotional/psychic damage.
 
There's also the question of the sustainability of losses. At the end of the day for all their limitless numbers the Rachni did end up losing to the Citadel thanks in no small part due to the Krogan who were able to match them in numbers and were tough as all hell individually.

My main issue with the swarm/carrier combo isn't the lack of tech - simple, reliable and plentiful is a tried-and-true war strategy. Just look at the AK-47, or american vs german tanks in ww2.

I agree, but I fear that might not be what's happening here. The leap in capability from ME1 to ME2 implied by the Thanix is less M1903 Springfield to M1 Garand and more F4F Wildcat to F8F Bearcat, only instead of the occasional bomb and machine guns the Bearcat sports as much firepower as a Fletcher-class destroyer. Or put another way, a bow and arrow and a modern gun.
 
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An issue I can see with strikecraft, even with Thanix cannons, is that while the codex says it lets a fighter match a cruiser's firepower, I suspect you're going to run into some pretty hard limits pretty quickly. Strikecraft don't have the same size of powerplant as a frigate, or the same degree of ability to deal with waste heat or anything like that, so I really doubt that they're going to have the juice to match a frigate-scale Thanix or the ability to keep engaging. Also there's the matter of having to design targeting systems for something like that to attack from farther away, since fighters otherwise engage at knife-fighting range and, again, GARDIAN lasers are ubiquitous. All this, to me, seems to add up to us needing to design an entire strikecraft-scale platform from scratch to carry the weapon system.

The other issue is resources. We could redesign our fighters to carry Thanix cannons, but that's a lot of design time and exotic materials spent on the kind of platform that is, in-universe, meant to be expendable. We're going to be losing fighters and pilots by the bucketload to the Reapers in any given engagement, and there's no guarantee we'll be able to salvage anything after such.
 
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