World On Fire: Shadow Ops [a Fantasy WWII Quest]

Should I make a thread in CD&W for you to make characters and draft nations?

  • Ye

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • Ne

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Put the system in this thread

    Votes: 6 60.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
Voting is open
I am terrible at plans, so I'll let someone else make one.

[x] You see remembering their names as your duty as squadron leader - it's a small thing, but it may help build trust (Come up with them)
 
@Zoosmell What do we know IC about the Japanese navy uses for in regards to supernatural powers for CAP, and/or defending their carriers? Also by a squadron of witches are we talking about 12 in 3 flights of 4, or a separate organization?

Edit Also are they equipped with the new broom, or the old one? if the latter what is the actual speed for it?
 
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We're going to need a Sitrep on the IJN's supernatural naval doctrine before I'm comfortable making a plan more sophisticated than "follow the torpedo bombers and shoot at the inevitable CAP."
 
Hm. So if the entire squadron are aces, and have the new broom the Zero has a never exceed speed of 320 kn compared to the circe having being able to do pull a sedate 300 with a typical witch being able to make 350 kn "east as pie", which based upon my limited knowledge of zero tactics means you'd just need to wait for them commit to a dive to punish them for trying to pull the walking death traps we're stuck escorting. This comes as the expense of maneuverability meaning we wouldn't want to dogfight with them.

In the event that only Shizuko has the Circe playing to the fact the Witch squadron appears to know what they're doing means just leaving them with general orders that give them flexibility to aim for keeping the zeroes diving limited to 1-2, and staggered enough Shizuko can regain sufficient altitude to intercept the next one.
 
Three hours is a poor amount of time for a power nap, and you don't really even have that much time, but the combination of magical training and the demands of military life have made you an expert at knocking yourself out and waking back up in a timely manner.
Good skill to have.
He doesn't even have flight goggles on - can't put them on anyway, with the bruises on his face.
Whoa, he really got beat up.
At this distance, even the largest ships are barely specks on the horizon, steam trailing from their smokestacks. But there's no mistaking it - the American fleet is miles behind you. And if you can see them, it won't be long before they can see you.

It's time.
 
How many witches do we have? And what are we all armed with?

A typical squadron of witches alone (as the US Navy is tending to do at the moment) has eight, ten, or twelve witches - the USN groups witches in twos, similar to the Rotten of the Luftwaffe. Apart from the standardized wand and the broom, their armaments are broadly the same - BAR, handgun, bayonet, grenades, wand, though only officers have sabres. In this case, it's a squadron of twelve.

@Zoosmell What do we know IC about the Japanese navy uses for in regards to supernatural powers for CAP, and/or defending their carriers? Also by a squadron of witches are we talking about 12 in 3 flights of 4, or a separate organization?

Edit Also are they equipped with the new broom, or the old one? if the latter what is the actual speed for it?

You're the only one in the squadron with the new broom, the rest all have "the old" broom. There's no real standardization for it, but its performance is roughly on par with the F4F Wildcat.

As for the question about Japanese naval uses for supernatural powers for CAP, I'm waiting on co-OP for that.
 
A typical squadron of witches alone (as the US Navy is tending to do at the moment) has eight, ten, or twelve witches - the USN groups witches in twos, similar to the Rotten of the Luftwaffe. Apart from the standardized wand and the broom, their armaments are broadly the same - BAR, handgun, bayonet, grenades, wand, though only officers have sabres. In this case, it's a squadron of twelve.
Does that 12 include us, or are we an extra?
 
[X] You see remembering their names as your duty as squadron leader - it's a small thing, but it may help build trust (Come up with them)
-[X] Abbie Rosales, Mira Conner, Elsie Mccray, Emma Green, Lily Robertson, Sophia Wilson, Jasmine Lane, Kiara Barber, Evie Blankenship, Isabelle White, Camille Bradford

Here's my recommendations for names of our squad mates, but I'm not sure about the plan. Is there anything else we should do but keep CAP for the torpedo bombers?
 
Here's my recommendations for names of our squad mates, but I'm not sure about the plan. Is there anything else we should do but keep CAP for the torpedo bombers?
Not especially, maybe thin out the IJN CAP a bit for later strikes but that just goes hand in hand with defending the TBDs.

As for a plan of attack/defense...

[X] Air Defense Plan V1
-[X] Split Witches into 3 Elements of 4.
--[X] Escort Flights 1 & 2: Maintain perimeter against incoming IJN fighters and witches.
--[X] Escort Flight 3: Hold above TBD formation. 3a and 3b will dive on anything that breaks through the perimeter, alternating as necessary. 3a will additionally provide support to perimeter flights if required.
---[X] Shizuko will command 3a.

A bit of preliminary thought, Shizuko has the faster and stronger broom which means she can reach hotzones all the quicker placing her in an advantageous position to provide overwatch over the rest of the squadron.

The new brooms are apparently less maneuverable though, not sure by how much but ultimately that means boom and zoom while keeping out of close dogfights unless necessary.
 
A Bit on Onmyoji and Ofuda
@Zoosmell What do we know IC about the Japanese navy uses for in regards to supernatural powers for CAP, and/or defending their carriers?

Aight info obtained, so:

Did you know that onmyoji can fly? Best hope the Shrine Maiden of Paradise isn't on board any of the carriers here or there might be some serious problems.

The good news is that while ofuda all have specific effects dictated by the inscriptions on the cards, they're generally slower than rifle bullets. Further, a lot of ofuda users go for quantity over quality, and the effects of individual ones can be quite weak.

The bad news is that they have to have those specific effects or they don't work at all, so if one hits you, it will do something.
 
Ah... hmm... should we need to specify tactics if we encounter shrine maidens? Maybe a basic watch distance and engage at range perhaps?
 
The bad news is that they have to have those specific effects or they don't work at all, so if one hits you, it will do something.
Alright, so we want to dodge whenever possible - and "slower than bullets" isn't terribly encouraging. This is a poor combination with our Torpedo bombers, as their entire shtick is coming in slowly to guarantee a hit, so we're probably going to want to maintain an aggressive air defense to ensure the Witch's' are taking fire and not the planes.

@Zoosmell - can you desire to us the USN's current supernatural doctrine for witches? I assume it's some degree of inadequate, but knowing what our subordinates have practiced doing will help us figure out a plan.
 
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@Zoosmell - can you desire to us the USN's current supernatural doctrine for witches? I assume it's some degree of inadequate, but knowing what our subordinates have practiced doing will help us figure out a plan.

Broadly, the doctrine is to treat witches as fighters to the steelwing's bombers, especially with actual attack aircraft. Fend off enemy witches where possible, and damage enemy fighters if possible, or at least herd them into the guns of the planes they're protecting - this is especially true for witches attached to fighter squadrons. Unlike the RAF, USN (and to a lesser extent USAAF) witches are advised against taking on enemy witches one-on-one. Shizuko may have to, but only because the capabilities of her own broom are so different.

The doctrine itself isn't really inadequate per se, it's the training and the 4lack of standardization. While standardization is an issue everywhere for witches, in the US it's quite severe: Since the US is a nation of immigrants, historically there was never any one coven that dominated witch politics for long (though the Salem Coven has held that status the longest and most often). More importantly, witches immigrating from so many different nations and covens brought with them dozens, in some areas hundreds, of different ways of doing the same things.
 
You like to think as an ace you know your own capabilities. And you do, but a few hours is far too short a time to get to know an entire squadron of witches. Certainly not enough time to learn how they'll handle the cream of the Imperial Japanese Navy crop, which is no doubt being sent against Midway.
For all I've disparaged the IJN, we should keep in mind that right now, the Kido Butai is the most experienced aircraft carrier squadron in the world, bar none. If nothing else, we're going up against some very talented pilots.
Somewhere out there on the ocean, bombers from Midway are raining death on the Japanese fleet.
I wonder if this is being rolled for? IRL, the Japanese got almost absurdly lucky that despite being attacked by over fifty different planes they emerged completely unscathed. Considering how fragile their carriers are, even a single hit from a level bomber would be a serious problem - let alone if that brave pilot was just a little bit lower and literally decapitated the Japanese fleet's leadership. I like to imagine the Kami were intervening overtime to bail the 1st Fleet out, and by the time the USN showed up to take a swing the spirits were simply out of juice.
The bombers you have to escort though... they take their time. You're not familiar with carrier operations, besides the two times you witnessed them aboard the Gettysburg - which had a significantly larger flight deck - but if it walks like a clusterfuck, swims like a clusterfuck, quacks like a clusterfuck...
Carrier operations are hellishly difficult to coordinate, especially if you've had no real prior battlefield experience. The difference in performances of the Yorktown (the veteran of Coral Sea) compared to the Enterprise and the Hornet was stark at Midway.
[ ] You see remembering their names as your duty as squadron leader - it's a small thing, but it may help build trust (Come up with them)
[ ] You blot all but their rank and surname from their mind - it will be easier to forget if they should fall
Just treating them like mooks seems incredibly callous, even if the death toll of our wild ride is likely to be severe.
Someone had said that getting every plane at the enemy as "fast" as possible was more important than coordinating, and you certainly hope they were right about getting to the destination faster, because they sure as hell aren't starting the journey any faster. It's closer to eight than seven when all of the Enterprise's torpedo bombers finally head for the carriers.
IJN: *Anguished Screaming* "How did they manage to coordinate their strikes so perfectly! Sacrificing their torpedo bombers to exhaust our CAP and prevent our carriers from launching an attack - the sheer genius and heroism displayed! It's impossible!"
USN: "If we have no idea what we're doing, the enemy will never be able to predict our plan!"
You form up on the bombers and leave the Enterprise and her escorts behind. You look worriedly at the squad leader of VT-6, a Lieutenant Commander Eugene Lindsey. He'd been fished out only a few days before when his plane stalled on landing and slid right off the deck. McCluskey had been surprised that he'd shown up for breakfast - and you were surprised that he let Lindsey fly. Even after a week of rigorous healing, and assistance from a healer witch aboard who looked a little too young for the job, he looked like hell. And still does.

He doesn't even have flight goggles on - can't put them on anyway, with the bruises on his face.
Hardcore.
You're not on radio silence, but the radio usage does taper off. For a few minutes, barring a course correction, you can just enjoy flying. The mix of clouds and open sky is a pain to fly through, but you've always liked that sort of challenge as long as nobody's shooting at you. The air is warm enough, the sea is clear enough, and nobody is shooting you right this second. Had you a camera, you'd take a picture of the spectacular cloudscapes that surround you.
The calm before the storm.
One of the other witches is the first to spot them.

"There!" she calls out with a gesture of her hand.

At this distance, even the largest ships are barely specks on the horizon, steam trailing from their smokestacks. But there's no mistaking it - the American fleet is miles behind you. And if you can see them, it won't be long before they can see you.

It's time.
And ... Here. We. Go.
The torpedo bombers know their shit - pick an aircraft carrier, split into two groups, and approach it at an angle so the ship has to be hit by at least one wave of fish. The crunch is that doing this puts them in a hideously vulnerable position for an extended period of time. Good news is that the IJN's AA is dogshit, so we "only" have to worry about their CAP.

In other words, it's down to the fighter escort to win or lose the attack. And seeing as ours is currently completely lost, that means the Witches are going to have to hard-carry. Buckle up, ladies and gents, because this is gonna suck.
 
Well I hope someone can come up with a decent final plan because the only one that exists is mine and is about as barebones as you can get without spilling marrow.
 
A typical squadron of witches alone (as the US Navy is tending to do at the moment) has eight, ten, or twelve witches - the USN groups witches in twos, similar to the Rotten of the Luftwaffe. Apart from the standardized wand and the broom, their armaments are broadly the same - BAR, handgun, bayonet, grenades, wand, though only officers have sabres. In this case, it's a squadron of twelve.
So, we have twelve Witches to work with, including Shizuko.
You're the only one in the squadron with the new broom, the rest all have "the old" broom. There's no real standardization for it, but its performance is roughly on par with the F4F Wildcat.
Shizuko is the Ace of the group in more ways than one, so we should keep in mind her different speed and capabilities when planning.
[X] Air Defense Plan V1
-[X] Split Witches into 3 Elements of 4.
--[X] Escort Flights 1 & 2: Maintain perimeter against incoming IJN fighters and witches.
--[X] Escort Flight 3: Hold above TBD formation. 3a and 3b will dive on anything that breaks through the perimeter, alternating as necessary. 3a will additionally provide support to perimeter flights if required.
---[X] Shizuko will command 3a.
This isn't a bad idea - I think splitting into groups of 4 is a solid plan - but we run into the issue of what to do when the Torpedo bombers split to begin their attack. Will running overhead overwatch still be viable when it's just two Witches, especially the team without Shizuko? Or will they just get overwhelmed?
Did you know that onmyoji can fly? Best hope the Shrine Maiden of Paradise isn't on board any of the carriers here or there might be some serious problems.
I'm pretty sure that's a Touhou reference, but having Shizuko draw out and exhaust/murder enemy "aces" is a viable strategy as that'd put Yorktown's torpedo attack and the final dive-bomber wave in better positions to act unimpeded.
The good news is that while ofuda all have specific effects dictated by the inscriptions on the cards, they're generally slower than rifle bullets. Further, a lot of ofuda users go for quantity over quality, and the effects of individual ones can be quite weak.

The bad news is that they have to have those specific effects or they don't work at all, so if one hits you, it will do something.
Something I should clarify: this is Japan's only aerial supernatural asset, right? They don't have Witches like western nations?
Ah... hmm... should we need to specify tactics if we encounter shrine maidens? Maybe a basic watch distance and engage at range perhaps?
It seems like the Shrine Maidens utilize Bullet Hell attacks with stacking modifiers, which isn't a good mix for us since the Torpedo bombers can't effectively dodge while on their attack runs - they'll get nailed by the Ofadu and then executed by the Zeros if we don't intervene. The question is how we set about avoiding this ...
Broadly, the doctrine is to treat witches as fighters to the steelwing's bombers, especially with actual attack aircraft. Fend off enemy witches where possible, and damage enemy fighters if possible, or at least herd them into the guns of the planes they're protecting - this is especially true for witches attached to fighter squadrons. Unlike the RAF, USN (and to a lesser extent USAAF) witches are advised against taking on enemy witches one-on-one. Shizuko may have to, but only because the capabilities of her own broom are so different.
That seems sensible enough - I'm thinking about trying to implement our own version of the Thach Weave, so it's good to hear that we won't be trying to override official doctrine.
The doctrine itself isn't really inadequate per se, it's the training and the 4lack of standardization. While standardization is an issue everywhere for witches, in the US it's quite severe: Since the US is a nation of immigrants, historically there was never any one coven that dominated witch politics for long (though the Salem Coven has held that status the longest and most often). More importantly, witches immigrating from so many different nations and covens brought with them dozens, in some areas hundreds, of different ways of doing the same things.
It seems like a logistical hassle, and then there are undoubtedly specific niche Witches being underutilized or pushed into unsuitable roles, but as for the moment this shouldn't be too relevant to our situation, thankfully.
Well I hope someone can come up with a decent final plan because the only one that exists is mine and is about as barebones as you can get without spilling marrow.
I'm trying to cook up something clever. The basic idea is that we want to make the enemy tunnel-vision on the squadron's Witches instead of the vulnerable Torpedo bombers, but we also can't assume our subordinates will be able to handle that kind of heat. Thus, the hypothetical plan is to copy what the OTL fighter pilots did in this situation - manuver together as a group in a way that prevents the Japanese's superior experience from showing in a way that drags the dogfights out for as long as possible. Meanwhile, we keep Shizuko and maybe a few others free to serve as a QRF, to deal with magical bullshit or to bail out anyone who gets in over their heads.

Historically, this worked really well, but the TBs still ended up getting hammered when the CAP meant to protect the Japanese carriers against dive bombers dropped out of position to attack them. Even if the only thing we accomplish is the same thing, that'll still leave Yorktown's Torpedo bombers in a much better position to launch their runs.
 
I was going to suggest something like split the squadron in half. The most maneuverable and/or defensive witches go forward low and fast on what looks like a direct ship strike, below the level of their AA. That means the only forces that can respond are CAP or enemy magicals. Either way it should bait -some- kind of response out that the planes should have a safer time navigating once its blown. That group is prepared to bail off their attack run OR to instead try to actually get among the ships if it seems smarter on their own initiative.

The other half of the MGs are still on direct plane escort. Whenever the CAP moves, then they can go interdict them, whether that ends up defending the planes or counterattacking them as they are pulled out of position by the first half of the MGs.
 
I was going to suggest something like split the squadron in half. The most maneuverable and/or defensive witches go forward low and fast on what looks like a direct ship strike, below the level of their AA. That means the only forces that can respond are CAP or enemy magicals. Either way it should bait -some- kind of response out that the planes should have a safer time navigating once its blown. That group is prepared to bail off their attack run OR to instead try to actually get among the ships if it seems smarter on their own initiative.

The other half of the MGs are still on direct plane escort. Whenever the CAP moves, then they can go interdict them, whether that ends up defending the planes or counterattacking them as they are pulled out of position by the first half of the MGs.
The problem with this is that the Japanese simply have enough CAP to attack both groups without any real issue. There's also the fact that six Witches can't pose anywhere near the threat a squadron of Torpedo bombers does, so the most likely result of this is that the IJN calls our bluff, sends the majority of their CAP to take out the planes and weakened Witch escort, before dealing with the 'distraction' group at their discretion. Finally, in order to prevent the targeted ship from simply turning away from the torpedos, the planes need to launch their attack from different angles, necessitating splitting the squadron into two groups. If we were to follow this plan, the torpedo bombers would only have three escorts each - the end result being that we split up our strength in the face of superior opposition and thus get picked apart piecemeal.

If we want to keep the Torpedo bombers alive, we need to stick with them for the longest period of time and in the greatest numbers possible, as the Devastators simply can't survive the CAP's attention without an escort and they need to get suicidally close to the CVs in order for their crappy Mark 14s to have a chance of working.
 
The problem with this is that the Japanese simply have enough CAP to attack both groups without any real issue. There's also the fact that six Witches can't pose anywhere near the threat a squadron of Torpedo bombers does, so the most likely result of this is that the IJN calls our bluff, sends the majority of their CAP to take out the planes and weakened Witch escort, before dealing with the 'distraction' group at their discretion. Finally, in order to prevent the targeted ship from simply turning away from the torpedos, the planes need to launch their attack from different angles, necessitating splitting the squadron into two groups. If we were to follow this plan, the torpedo bombers would only have three escorts each - the end result being that we split up our strength in the face of superior opposition and thus get picked apart piecemeal.

If we want to keep the Torpedo bombers alive, we need to stick with them for the longest period of time and in the greatest numbers possible, as the Devastators simply can't survive the CAP's attention without an escort and they need to get suicidally close to the CVs in order for their crappy Mark 14s to have a chance of working.
I think you're underestimating what the witches can do. If they let witches get in too close, then they're also going to lose ships. It may not be -quick- but they need to have some very good marines or their equivalent to stop them from running riot. At minimum they can decap the bridge without real issue, nevermind starting to sweep all of the external AA or get into the hangars and so on.

As for sending their CAP out...like yeah that's fine. The basic goal here is to deplete their responses one way or another so follow up strikes can get home. I don't think they don't need to attack from different angles either really, not every ship is going to be able to turn in unison to dodge torps.

Putting the level of success as keeping all the planes intact or close to is an overreach IMO, especially given the limitations they're under.
 
The biggest problem is we simply don't have the numbers to hold for any considerable length of time. Any split of force is going to have consequences and sticking so close to the TBDs is basically a death sentence.

Making the witches the bigger target comes with the caveat that I'm not sure they can survive the concentrated pressure of an IJN carrier cap. Shizuko's difficulty reduction when defending allies will certainly come into play and the primary reason I wanted her on overwatch but will definitely come in handy if we need her playing primary interdiction.

So what to do...
 
I think you're underestimating what the witches can do. If they let witches get in too close, then they're also going to lose ships. It may not be -quick- but they need to have some very good marines or their equivalent to stop them from running riot. At minimum they can decap the bridge without real issue, nevermind starting to sweep all of the external AA or get into the hangars and so on.
I'm fairly certain that if small groups of Witches armed with light machine guns and hand grenades posed viable threats to aircraft carriers, we would have been told, as that's a huge deal. Even if it were the case, however, I strongly suspect the Japanese will have their own supernatural countermeasures - and hell, while the IJN's AA might be awful, our witches would still be facing anti-aircraft guns at point-blank range.
As for sending their CAP out...like yeah that's fine. The basic goal here is to deplete their responses one way or another so follow up strikes can get home.
While this is true from a meta-perspective, I really don't think viewing the missions as a suicide run is healthy from an IC standpoint. As far as Shizuko is concerned, the mission is to protect the torpedo bombers on their attack run and get as many people home alive as possible. Sending out half of her subordinates to die as a distraction would be incredibly out of character - and undoubtedly have consequences with the US Navy, who're extremely unlikely to be pleased with our course of action.
I don't think they don't need to attack from different angles either really, not every ship is going to be able to turn in unison to dodge torps.
Alright, a couple of things to clarify here. First of all, we aren't in command of the torpedo bombers. Assuming that there are enough of them left alive to do so by the time they get close enough, they're going to follow their orders and doctrine. It's extremely easy for the Japanese ships to see the torpedo bombers coming and angle away from their attack - the reason none of the torpedos hit OTL was that the TBs took too many casualties for them to effectively pull off a correct flanking aerial torpedo run. I also should mention that, strategically speaking, every ship in the Japanese fleet besides their aircraft carriers is functionally irrelevant. The fleets at Midway never had a single surface engagement, and the non-CVs are also tough enough to survive being nailed by a torpedo or two, so it's unlikely we'd actually be able to sink one of them unless we hit a particularly fragile destroyer, and they'd have no difficulty dodging the shitty early-war American torpedos.
Putting the level of success as keeping all the planes intact or close to is an overreach IMO, especially given the limitations they're under.
Well, of course. That being said, we still have an obligation to follow the promise we made to McClusky. Getting a perfect run is impossible but we ought to try and do as good a job we can.
sticking so close to the TBDs is basically a death sentence.
Truth be told, sticking with them might not be a bad idea. The American planes do well enough when they can stick in formation and cover each other with their tail gunners, so having some of our Witches stick close to that umbrella could be a viable strategy - although our job will mainly consist of running interference so the Zeros and Shrine Maidens can't break the formation up and eat the Devastators alive.
 
I'm fairly certain that if small groups of Witches armed with light machine guns and hand grenades posed viable threats to aircraft carriers, we would have been told, as that's a huge deal.
...I'm not sure if you know this, but literally the entire quest has been small groups of magicals taking installations or flying craft or whatever else. We don't need to be specifically told, it's been demonstrated over and over already.

Anyway, if onmyouji can put up a literal wall of danmaku the planes are 100% dead to no effect. It's undefendable and unavoidable for them. We have to be making aggressive moves to force them to do something else. That's not out of character, that's acknowledging what the reality of the battle is.
 
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