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@Inferno Vulpix @Oneiros
Could you add "consider Hinata's contingencies to our approach" or some similar verbiage to the part where we check-in with Mari about our anti-Hagoromo plan?

Would vote for either (or both) plan that adds that!

Also pinging @Lailoken in case they also would vote for that (I think they've been promoting that as an important thing to address)
 
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@Inferno Vulpix @Oneiros
Could you add "consider Hinata's contingencies to our approach" or some similar verbiage to the part where we check-in with Mari about our anti-Hagoromo plan?

Would vote for either (or both) plan that adds that!

Also pinging @Lailoken in case they also would vote for that (I think they've been promoting that as an important thing to address)
Squeezed that in right up at the top:
Forked Oneiros' plan to take Keiko's path (let it look like the Nara are the ones orchestrating the war) instead of the Ami path, and also added in specific suggestions on how to get the Hagoromo willing to duel us. Second half of the plan is unchanged.

wordcount: 299
[X] Action Plan: A fire burning on a mountain peak bathes the world in light
  • It's time to start the fireworks
  • Optimize with Mari so we don't make a faux pas or fall into Hyuuga et al. contingencies
  • We don't have time to get in Asuma's good books enough, so we should follow Keiko's advice
    • When we do something publicly visible, see if we can make it look like the Nara are the ones taking point
  • Start burning down the hags
    • Hit the discussed targets
      • Use casino seals to help evade detection
    • Stop payment on election deal, citing bureaucratic difficulties.
    • Begin sparring with with the people Ami suggested
    • Start spitting in the face of the Hagoromo's sensibilities:
      • Figure out what parts of their implicit doctrine we can get away with violating (including not majorly ticking off other powers), and start visibly doing so.
      • Maintain a good image with plenty of visible do-goodery and adherence to the parts of their explicit doctrine we're okay with.
      • They'll hate us but be unable to call us out over it, and then we can offer the 'friendly spar'.
  • Noburi and Hazou meet with Asuma
    • Begin by informing Asuma that Noburi and Yuno are engaged
    • We have a couple proposals we'd like to discuss:
      • Now that the decryption is done, we're intending to make new combat seals
        • We'd like to inquire about donating useful combat seals to Jounin and ANBU to help augment Leaf's elite forces, with the provision that they don't get leaked or reverse-engineered
      • Noburi's abilities allow him to refill a summoner's chakra on the 7th Path without himself being on-mission, as long as an embassy between the two clans is made on the 7th Path. This should be a great help to summoners on crucial missions.
        • (Test with Keiko that this works first)
  • Schedule a meeting with an Inuzuka to discuss the history of the ninken
 
@Oneiros @Inferno Vulpix
How bout including some Ami style resolve training?

Does it really count as Ami style training when it's just variations of

Self harm continuously
?

That training is usually more creative (never touch the ground -> practice chakra adhesion in everyday situations) than directly harmful, though of course that can happen as a direct consequence of Hazou doing badly.

And while I like that you cut out the middleman and jumped right into making Hazou suffer, I don't think this will earn us bonus XP because we are just infringing on the QMs' thing now.
 
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Seriously, Asuma's going to be a lot more accommodating if the Goeketsu walk in with one or two of his only three S-rankers backing them. Groundwork matters.

A wedding of the chosen son of the Sannin hero fifth Hokage with the full blessing of the third openly supported by a living saint, a living martyr, and the Hokage son of the third has to be seen as legitimate. The Hags may have banked legitimacy, but at some point sheer weight makes them start looking like the assholes for holding out. That would undermine the public's perception of their authority more than anything else possibly could.


@Inferno Vulpix @Oneiros
Could you add "consider Hinata's contingencies to our approach" or some similar verbiage to the part where we check-in with Mari about our anti-Hagoromo plan?

Would vote for either (or both) plan that adds that!

Also pinging @Lailoken in case they also would vote for that (I think they've been promoting that as an important thing to address)
You do not want me to vote. The last time I voted in a quest a surprise supervolcano doomed a quarter of the species to starvation, prompting a global war which killed another quarter to determine precisely which. I know it's superstitious, but at some point you just have to recognize a pattern.


Does it really count as Ami style training when it's just variations of


?

That training is usually more creative (never touch the ground -> practice chakra adhesion in everyday situations) than directly harmful, though of course that can happen as a direct consequence of Hazou doing badly.

And while I like that you cut out the middleman and jumped right into making Hazou suffer, I don't think this will earn us bonus XP because we are just infringing on the QMs' thing now.

Again, it is now possible to conduct Ami-style training with Ami.
 
Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Oct 10, 2020 at 1:29 PM, finished with 77 posts and 17 votes.

Voting is closed.
 
True, but I didn't want to open up a whole other discussion about whether we should still try going scroll hunting or not. I'll be completely honest, I feel like we're spinning our wheels with all this political stuff. We're feeding into the system here, not revitalizing it.

We should choose a couple out of seal research, clanless ninja standing, summons, interpersonal relationships, FOOM, and external missions to really focus on after this (and presumably Isan afterwards) finishes up, because our diffuse focus hasn't produced as much in the way of concrete progress compared to, say, skywalkers or the Chunin Exams.

I disagree strongly.

Selling Skywalkers to Leaf was a major milestone because of the relative increase in standing and power it ultimately gave us, and how it transformed the quest. In terms of absolute impact, I'm fairly confident Hazou becoming clan head rivals that. It's easy to forget how little agency we really had with Jiraiya heading the clan, and how much we have now in comparison. Our act of providing shelter for the displaced civilians of Leaf after the collapse alone probably wipes out our karmic debt incurred from the Sunset Racer.

In particular, the Chuunin Exam was largely wheel-spinning without much in the way of visible results, fun as it may have been. The most impactful thing we accomplished there by far was pointing Jiraiya at Team Bloodrage, a minor event all things considered. Distracting Zabuza during the game night in Mist had magnitudes more impact than the whole Chuunin Exams, for example.

Our current reality is that Hazou is a leader, and leaders' responsibilities are by nature diffuse - they simply have way more of them, and can't afford to monofocus on the few projects they think are important. I do think we could be more *deliberate* about how we lead and what kind of example we set for our clan, but there's really no running away from this. Maybe if we make Gaku Grand Vizier and have him take care of some stuff. However, I think this responsibility has been very good for Hazou's character growth, and am loathe to get rid of it.
 
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I disagree strongly.

Selling Skywalkers to Leaf was a major milestone because of the relative increase in standing and power it ultimately gave us, and how it transformed the quest. In terms of absolute impact, I'm fairly confident Hazou becoming clan head rivals that. It's easy to forget how little agency we really had with Jiraiya heading the clan, and how much we have now in comparison. Our act of providing shelter for the displaced civilians of Leaf after the collapse alone probably wipes out our karmic debt incurred from the Sunset Racer.

In particular, the Chuunin Exam was largely wheel-spinning without much in the way of visible results, fun as it may have been. The most impactful thing we accomplished there by far was pointing Jiraiya at Team Bloodrage, a minor event all things considered. Distracting Zabuza during the game night in Mist had magnitudes more impact than the whole Chuunin Exams, for example.

Our current reality is that Hazou is a leader, and leaders' responsibilities are by nature diffuse - they simply have way more of them, and can't afford to monofocus on the few projects they think are important. I do think we could be more *deliberate* about how we lead and what kind of example we set for our clan, but there's really no running away from this. Maybe if we make Gaku Grand Vizier and have him take care of some stuff. However, I think this responsibility has been very good for Hazou's character growth, and am loathe to get rid of it.

I agree that the initial period after becoming clan head was very transformative - we were able to tackle the Hokage vote, convince Ebisu and Asuma about clanless ninja being worthwhile, work on adoption slots, grow closer with Naruto, deal with the threat of Hiashi, shelter people after the collapse, etc.

My issue is that we have little in the way of concrete process recently. We have a team working on skygliders, and working on sewers, and working on the chocolate scheme, but realistically what are we doing? Look at how much Ami has accomplished with the handicap of being a foreign ninja. We're pretty much relying on the Nara to do the majority of the work with the Hagoromo.

Having this much agency means our goals are only clearly defined by us, and interactions like Kadokura Ruri explaining to us that ultimately, we haven't done much for the clanless ninja (to be fair, she was at least a little biased) show that we haven't made more than incremental differences on many fronts. I agree that this is part of having such diffuse responsibilities, which was why I suggested we try and focus more on a couple of things that either have great importance or we've shown strong success with in the past (also more concrete things like Ino sidequest and Dogs' sidequests!).

My comparison to the Chunin Exams (which I was referring to as more of a time period, not specifically as an event) was, as much as we may have avoided plot threads, we had a specific goal in mind, and we were much more effective at applying ourselves to that goal. We ended up with first and second in a dominating performance there, prevented Zabuza from spilling the secret, helped mend Ami and Keiko's relationship, interacted with the Yakuza, and so on.

We're potentially suffering from success, having solved the easy or small problems, but I also think we as a hivemind have difficulty working efficiently when we scale up to more abstract problems or unclear priorities. We've pretty much devolved into having each update being meetings - we met with Keiko about FOOM; Neji, Kadokura, and Minami about summon network; Mari and Gaku quite often; Noburi's birthday party; Shikamaru and Keiko; Ami and Keiko; and now we're going to meet with Asuma.

This is personal preference, but I'd rather focus on the cool parts of the superhuman ninja world than getting bogged down in politics, which is of course impossible when we're constantly reliant on other people - again, my list of things is mostly what we can do or attempt to brainstorm and implement mostly solo with a defined goal. We end up offscreening a lot of our running responsibilities anyway.

Just my two cents.
 
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@Inferno Vulpix, I've awarded Keiko 4 SC XP based on your calculations, based on the premises that the Resolve training plan went through, brevity bonuses don't benefit from bonus XP, and clones can't train the user's Physique with Pangolin ninjutsu. Is this correct?

Also, I don't think you included Chapter 375.
 
@Inferno Vulpix, I've awarded Keiko 4 SC XP based on your calculations, based on the premises that the Resolve training plan went through, brevity bonuses don't benefit from bonus XP, and clones can't train the user's Physique with Pangolin ninjutsu. Is this correct?

Also, I don't think you included Chapter 375.
That's correct if you're rounding up from 3.7 XP, I think.

Assuming you mean the Resolve training went through at Chapter 376 as proposed here, and only applied to Chapter 377 and beyond, then Keiko's SC gains would be 0.9 + 1.2 + 1.6 = +3.7 XP.

Hmm, I'm also assuming that the Yamanaka gains aren't applied either, but if that does work then it'd be +3.7 normal XP and (I think) +0.185 Yamanaka XP.

Chapter 375 was not included because (from what I remember) nobody did a SC calculation between Chapter 375 and 376 and so by the rules there's no payout for that period.

Also, I asked about this a little while ago, but what's your opinion on the described situation/proposal regarding how SC rolls are to be simulated to account for things like Consequences showing up mid-calculation in longer updates?
And while that covers everything up until now, there's something on my mind about the future:
Our SOP for SC training dynamically scales up and down the number of shadow clones training based on things like extant Consequences. This is not a problem in updates covering only one day, as we can derive that scaling at the time of the calculation, but if you pose a month-long timeskip, we wouldn't be able to perform that scaling without knowing when and if we took a Consequence.

In other words, there are three options: abandon the idea of dynamic SOPs and give a fixed number of clones no matter the context, you read the SOPs to inform your simulation of the Resolve checks, or we perform the simulation ourselves and tell you what we rolled.

The first option is simplest, but suboptimal for growth and the inflexibility can introduce bigger problems down the line. The second option would work, but giving you extra work is suboptimal in my book. The third option, though, can be kept honest with public discord rolls, allowing us to follow the SOP and tell you what the exact result is without any additional trouble to you.

I personally favor the discord roll option, but let me know what you think is best.
 
That's correct if you're rounding up from 3.7 XP, I think.

Assuming you mean the Resolve training went through at Chapter 376 as proposed here, and only applied to Chapter 377 and beyond, then Keiko's SC gains would be 0.9 + 1.2 + 1.6 = +3.7 XP.

Hmm, I'm also assuming that the Yamanaka gains aren't applied either, but if that does work then it'd be +3.7 normal XP and (I think) +0.185 Yamanaka XP.
My mistake. I actually thought it was 4. The rules specify no rounding.

Also, I asked about this a little while ago, but what's your opinion on the described situation/proposal regarding how SC rolls are to be simulated to account for things like Consequences showing up mid-calculation in longer updates?
That's still on the agenda to discuss.
 
Chapter 380: The War Begins

Atomu ghosted forward, his steps light and silent as he clung to the shadows cast by the fragment of moon. There were few clouds out tonight, but there were enough. He reached the door of the forge and eased it open gently, slipping inside when it was only barely wide enough. There was the quench oil, exactly as predicted. He eased it over, needing to use a moderate chakra boost in order to shift the weight of the thing. A bit of a twist to ensure that the oil spread widely and reached to the workbench against the wall, a quick tap against a storage scroll, and he had two green-wood logs that he tossed into the sullen embers of the forge. They would spit and pop as they burned, throwing sparks everywhere that might be adequate to ignite the oil.

Of course, that was really just for pretence and probably wouldn't survive what was coming. He lay the Youthenizer on the edge of the forge, set the timer for thirty seconds, and vanished into the night.

Behind him the ravenous flames devoured a man's livelihood, and the fortunes of the Hagoromo.

o-o-o-o​

"M'Lord, I'm sorry," Uryū sobbed. "I did all the rituals properly, I swear! I did not cause the fire. I wasn't even near the Ancestral Flame when it erupted! And when it did...I...I panicked, My Lord. I'm sorry."

"You should have prioritized the treasures above your own worthless life," Ritsuo growled. "They were worth far more. Where was Nagaharu?"

"He...was taken ill, My Lord. Fever, vomiting, loose bowel. He said it would be acceptable for me to simply perform the cleansing ritual, since I did not have to actually approach the treasures themselves."

"Tell me again what happened. Leave out no detail."

"Your will, Lord.

"I purified myself before the rise of the sun, dressed in my finest vestments, and made obeisance at the outer door. I entered, locked the door behind me, and performed obeisance again. Then I cleansed myself again. I unlocked the inner door and entered. I performed obeisance and cleansed myself again. I spoke the words to the family kami and then explained that Master Nobuyasu was gravely ill but he felt that I was ready and thus had granted me leave to perform the ceremony in his stead. I said that I would leave immediately if this was unacceptable to the Great Ones and to please grant me a sign if it were the case. The lamp never so much as flickered, My Lord! I swear it."

"You swear it? And your word is worth what? You failed your duty to the treasures of Clan Hagoromo! Our history is impoverished for your carelessness and stupidity!" Ritsuo found himself out of his chair and on his feet, killing intent flooding the room and driving Uryū to his knees in full dogeza. The already-terrified middle-aged chūnin was groveling, pleading for his life and sobbing.

Ritsuo forced himself to control his breathing and his temper. He wrestled his killing intent back into its box and sat down again.

"Continue. Leave out no detail."

"Yes, My Lord. The kami having given no sign, I moved around the room, performing the full purification ritual at each corner and each center. I started at the southwest corner, the one farthest from the door, as is specified in the ancestral texts. I made obeisance before refilling the reservoir on the Ancestral Flame. I unboxed the new lampshade and set the box aside reverently. I cleansed the inside and outside of the shade with the sacred brush, and then I changed it out for the shade already on the Flame so that the family kami would have new patterns of light and shadow to amuse them. I said the prayer, tapped the gong, and sprinkled a drop of water. Then I moved to the center of the east wall, made obeisance, said the prayer, and sprinkled a drop of water. I moved to the northeast corner and made obeisance, and that is when the Ancestral Flame erupted.

"Sacred oil splashed everywhere and the very air seemed to ignite. The oil soaked my vestments and I was ablaze. My hair scorched and burned but I slapped it out with my sleeve as I ran out the door. It was only then that I realized what had happened. I opened the door to go back and attempt to salvage some of the Treasures, but the fire was too hot. I am so, so sorry, My Lord."

"You did not even think to grab one of the Treasures? Master Zenzō's koto? Master Yugo's shamisen? The journal of the founder? Nothing?! We have commitments! The Four were to play at the wedding of Lord Kurusu's son next week, and now they will play with a pauper's instruments because you allowed the masterworks to become ash! Do you have any idea what an insult this will be? I shall have to explain it to Kurusu and I will look the fool!"

He was panting, barely controlling his rage. He paused again to master himself.

"Get out of my sight. Go to the cells and lock yourself in. Tell the guards you are to receive no food or water. I will decide later what to do with you."

"Yes, My Lord!"

The fool retreated in shikko, scurrying backwards and bowing every second motion, but Ritsuo had already dismissed him from his thought.

Master Nobuyasu falling ill, perhaps that was happenstance. One of the sacred lampshades erupting in flames that splashed oil across the entire room—from the sound of it, far more oil than would have been in the reservoir of the Ancestral Flame? Either the family kami were gravely angered at the junior priest being sent to them, yet chose to give no sign before lashing out...or this was no accident.

Still...how could it have been done? 'Too much oil' suggested a storage seal, but where could it have been? The inside of the lampshade was the obvious choice, but that was impossible. Uryū was an idiot, but he would have recognized a storage seal on the lampshade. True, there were already designs inked onto the shade but they were not intricate enough to disguise a seal.

Unless one could ink the seal directly into the darkened areas, whispered the back of his brain. Or draw the seal and then paint over it.

No. That was ridiculous. Painting over a seal was dangerous, everyone knew that, and drawing a seal onto a black region of the paper would be unsafe. There would be no way to identify the brush marks and verify they were accurate. No sealmaster would dare risk infusing a seal that they couldn't verify.

Yet, if it wasn't a storage seal, what was it? With a normal lampshade, perhaps it could have been sandwiched between the plies of the paper, but the shades of the Ancestral Flame were always a single layer of sheer cloth. Regardless, after a fire as intense as this had been, there would be no trace left. No way to identify the culprit.

Still. Could there be any doubt?

o-o-o-o​

"What is this?" Sakichi snapped, pointing at the pile of metal spilled across the countertop.

The Gōketsu messenger frowned. "It's ryō, obviously. You know, that payment that we've been giving you every month since the election because you can't manage your own finances?"

"This isn't ryō! It is...it is...foul!"

The messenger, a chūnin named Reo who was missing his leg above the knee, frowned deeper. "What are you talking about? I mean, sure, it's foreign coin but it's still the right amount based on current exchange rates. We have a treaty with Mist right now, remember? Any merchant in town will accept this stuff, and if they don't then Gōketsu will make it right."

"The Hagoromo are not about to use such foul and polluted metal! It would be against the Will of Fire!"

Reo shrugged. "Hey, not my problem. I just deliver the stuff. Now, your guards already logged me in so there's a record that I brought the payment. Are you going to sign off on having received it or are we going to the Hokage's office right now?"

o-o-o-o​

"How was sparring?" Noburi asked, handing Hazō a towel as he climbed out of the tub. The question was purely social; Hazō was sporting a beautiful shiner and had been soaking for thirty minutes to get the muscle aches out, but he had a wide grin on his face.

"Really good," Hazō said, drying himself off. "I've got another one this afternoon with one of the Sarutobi. The Nara and Motoyoshi are tomorrow and by then it should be clear that I'm going through the clans in order. It won't look odd when I get to the Hagoromo and call them out." He toweled his hair for a moment.

"I am so looking forward to punching that smug bastard's face in," Noburi said fervently. "You're including me, right?"

"That's the plan, yeah. You, me, Keiko against their Clan Head and two others of his choice. I'm going to need you to join in on some of these other spars to lay the groundwork."

"No problem. I'm tied up with lessons tomorrow afternoon but I could do the morning or the next day."

"Can't do the morning. I'm meeting with the Inuzuka to talk about the history of the ninken. Afternoon of the day after might work; I'll let you know. In the meantime, let's go beard the lion."

"Ugh. Remind me why I let you rope me in on this?"

"Because you want to marry Yuno, we both want to annihilate the Hagoromo, and we want to do those things without pissing off the omnipotent dictator who can have us killed for any reason or no reason?"

"Oh, right."

o-o-o-o​

Asuma nodded, gesturing them to their chairs and pushing the tea tray closer. Hazō selected one of the three cups, Noburi took his, and only then did Asuma take the final cup.

The massive knot in Hazō's stomach untied itself slightly. Asuma was following courtesy by allowing them to choose their own cups instead of invoking his right as their superior to pass them whichever cups he wanted. That was a good sign.

"So. What may I do for you gentlemen?"

"Sir, I would like to announce my engagement to Gasai Yuno of the village of Isan," Noburi said. "May I have your blessing?"

Asuma snorted. "About time. Yes, you have my blessing. When is the wedding?" The tone made perfectly clear that he knew all about the 'no marriages until you grovel' Hagoromo policy.

"We are discussing it with Lord Hagoromo," Hazō said smoothly. "We expect to have it settled within the next week or so."

"Can't be soon enough. I want to get moving on contacting Isan and we're going to need her to secure our initial entrance." He sipped his tea. "So. I'm assuming there is something else?"

"Yes sir," Hazō said. "The first thing is that we've confirmed that Noburi's chakra water loses its chakra immediately whenever it is on a different Path from him, which means we"—he nodded in acknowledgement of Noburi's sharp throat-clearing—"that he isn't going to be able to resupply anyone other than Summoners. We also verified that it works for Summoners."

"Excellent. Thank you, Noburi. I know this isn't your favorite use of your abilities, but it will make a big difference in Leaf's ability to project power."

"Of course, sir."

"The second thing," Hazō said carefully, "is that now that the decryption work is done and Jiraiya's notes are all turned over, Kagome-sensei and I are planning to work on some new combat seals. By default these would be clan secrets of the Gōketsu, but I wanted to ask: I'm prepared to offer them in small numbers for use by yourself and ANBU if you will ensure that they aren't reverse-engineered or given to anyone else."

Asuma's eyebrows rose. "What prompted this gesture of altruism?"

Hazō paused and took a breath, squaring up his shoulders and meeting his ruler's eyes directly. "Various things. The Gōketsu intend to embody the Will of Fire to the absolute best of our ability, and part of that means contributing to the village. On the other hand, we're a small clan and a new clan; we need to have secrets and tricks of our own, just like all the other clans do. We can't afford to hand over everything we invent. This seemed like a decent compromise."

Asuma's lips twitched. "Any other reasons?"

Hazō turned a hand palm-up in confession. "If you're asking whether or not I'm trying to buy your favor...I would prefer to phrase it as 'apologizing and attempting to make up for the headaches I have caused.'"

Asuma laughed hard enough that he choked on the sip of tea he'd been taking. He set the tea down and thumped his own chest for a moment. "Well now I suppose I have no choice but to throw you in a cell for attempted tea-based assassination." He picked up a napkin and blotted his shirt where some of the tea had spilled. "Thank you, Hazō. Yes, if you are willing to supply unique seals for myself and ANBU then I will guarantee that those seals are not reverse-engineered by anyone in Leaf. What exactly are you offering?"

Hazō smiled. "Actually, I've had a couple of ideas, and if there's anything you particularly wanted I'm open to suggestions. That said, here's what I was thinking...."





Author's Note: Keiko was down with the idea that you simply stop paying the Hagoromo. Mari thought that it would be a very bad idea to go back on your word without stronger reason; she suggested instead paying them in a way that they wouldn't use.

XP AWARD: 10 This update covered 3 days.

Brevity XP: 1

It is now about 6pm.

Vote time! What to do now?

Voting ends on Wednesday, October 14, 2020, at 12pm London time.
 
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So, do we want to turn up the heat besides "Continue Previous Plan"?

Couple of ideas:
  • find some way to help that smith who may or may not get executed for our actions
  • cop their paper mill with pity money
  • research Hagoromo fighting style
  • make a very public announcement of Noburi's engagement to Yuno and throw a hugeass party and invite literally everyone
 
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