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A Sword Without a Hilt: A Song of Ice and Fire/D&D 3.5 Crossover

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Artemis1992 said:
She is going to be a hostile combatant and I've always thought that there is no better way to gain someone's lasting enemity than killing and later Rezzing them in the hope of recruitment
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I feel like I should make a note of this in principle, barring exceptional circumstances like Rhango, who practically comitted suicide by dragon killing and rezzzing is unlikely to yield loyal vassals, dying is painful and traumatic even beyond pain. If you guys want to recruit someone best to try to catch them alive.
 
065tdsa said:
So, does this mean those idiots are using the Fifteenth to power their dragon killing machine? Because that's what I got out of it.
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That would be amusing, but in a really unfortunate way. No telling how poorly that could go, from nothing too bad happening to the Westerlands getting nuked.

Probably still not as bad as if they somehow got their hands on a ritual related to the one Void forces used to drive most of Dragonkind mad prior to the fall of the Empire of Dawn. That would have all sorts of unpleasant implications.
 
tarrangar said:
I admit I got way too obsessed with the Kongamato.

And interrogation magic, would be either if we take her alive, or if the divinations came back positive on the idea of recruitment, if we capture her alive, interrogating her should be easy, if we kill her, we can first use divination to get an idea of if recruiting her is possible, and if the divinations look positive enough that we deem it worth resurrecting her, we can also interrogate her to be sure.

Either that or we use interrogation magic on her soul, Speak with Soul is a thing, we haven't used it yet, but as long as we know where she died, we can use Speak with soul, to interrogate her without resurrecting her.
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Alright. And now let us take a step back and explain to me why I have to make an airtight case against Lana, simply because you are obsessed with recruiting her.
And I'm still suspicious that you will not be satisfied with the divinations coming up "Treason" and try to force us to resurrect her anyway.

But let's get back to a certain fact. You are the one who wants to do this.

Why? What is in it for us? You have not given any reason at all for this so far.
And even if we were to try it, how? I kept asking you how you want to recruit her and you just gave me some vague non-answer that she will just happily obey once Tywin is dead. Why should she? What do you want to offer her? How many provinces worth of the Westerlands do you want to sell for this?

So far, you have mostly made a case for why we are not allowed to deny you to do this, but I've yet to see something that actually says why I should want to do any of this.
 
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tarrangar said:
With the Kongamato I never got anywhere, we didn't do any divinations or anything, I was just rebuffed forever.

As for when the time is to decide, that would be either when the war is over, when Lanna is dead, or when we have Lanna captured.

Either way there should be one clear decision, we use divination and interrogation magic, to determine how trustworthy she would be if recruited, and then decide whether we want to recruit her, if after we have used magic to get all the facts, we decide we don't want to recruit her, then that's that, I accept that she wont be recruited, and don't mention her going forward.

All I really want, is that we actually do that fact finding, before deciding if she should be kept dead.
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This seems like a bad idea. We had a similar discussion with the Golden Company, specifically about how a spite filled full caster of any real power makes for a terrible subordinate.

Even if she somehow agreed to work for us after everything we're going to do to her friends, family, colleagues, and homeland she'd still have a huge lever for some devil to exploit later.

Divination and interrogation isn't perfect either, because people can change their opinions with new circumstances and any good attempt to flip her would involve wards against foresight.

I'm confused about why this is something you care about. What does Lana offer that we can't get by stealing all of the Golden Shields' stuff and training our own loyal people? If it's just her level and class then we can probably find comparable mercenaries on the PoE that don't have so many reasons to hate our guts.
 
I agree that Lanna at this stage is too invested in her stuff. If she doesn't even attempt to negotiate with us or stand down, she should be killed.

If she just wants to leave and never come back to trouble us, she should be allowed to do so, though.

[X] Egoo

BronzeTongue said:
I'm confused about why this is something you care about. What does Lana offer that we can't get by stealing all of the Golden Shields' stuff and training our own loyal people? If it's just her level and class then we can probably find comparable mercenaries on the PoE that don't have so many reasons to hate our guts.
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Zathir can help us with the awakening of friendly mages using his altar if we can recover it, we won't need to coerce unrepentantly hostile Golden Shield mages. (Any that surrender and are willing to flip to our sides should be encouraged to bleed off Lannister manpower)
 
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Azel said:
Alright. And now let us take a step back and explain to me why I have to make an airtight case against Lana, simply because you are obsessed with recruiting her.
And I'm still suspicious that you will not be satisfied with the divinations coming up "Treason" and try to force us to resurrect her anyway.

But let's get back to a certain fact. You are the one who wants to do this.

Why? What is in it for us? You have not given any reason at all for this so far.
And even if we were to try it, how? I kept asking you how you want to recruit her and you just gave me some vague non-answer that she will just happily obey once Tywin is dead. Why should she? What do you want to offer her? How many provinces worth of the Westerlands do you want to sell for this?

So far, you have mostly made a case for why we are not allowed to deny you to do this, but I've yet to see something that actually says why I should want to do any of this.
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I will promise that if the divination comes up treason, I will drop it.

I don't know yet, that's the whole point, we don't yet have all the facts needed for a decision.

And as for what's in it for us, that's a high level caster recruit, if Lanna is loyal she's valuable, casters of her level don't grow on trees.
 
We can already raise potential Scholarum students to that kind of experience level (eventually), just assign some of them as troubleshooters or as our understudy agents to assist us in minor/major actions.
 
tarrangar said:
And as for what's in it for us, that's a high level caster recruit, if Lanna is loyal she's valuable, casters of her level don't grow on trees.
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And the political fallout of keeping her around? That the remaining Golden Shields mages will flock to her as the nucleus of an armed resistance against our rule? That the remaining Lannisters will likely close ranks around her and Gerion for the same reason you want to keep her?

I would have been willing to deal with all of this if she voluntarily came over to our side. Then I would have had at least a vague hope that she would report such problems instead of joining in on the plotting. But like this? No way.

Your divination scheme is flawed for the simple reason that it can't predict something that happens with the influence of a Mindblank. If she ever gets another Mindblank and starts plotting treason then, then Divination won't show it. Hell. It would be enough if she is contacted by someone under Mindblank for the information to not show, since her change of mind would be predicated on the actions of a Mindblanked individual and thus become undivinable. What worth is a mid-level caster when it means we might have 20+ of the new, devil improved Dragon-Murder-Construct 2.0 barreling down on us in a year?

You are offering assurances that aren't for a prize that isn't.
 
DragonParadox said:
Not really. Lanna is a proper PC, level 15-ish from what Marwyn says. At those ratified heights you have to go looking for challenges rather than be trained by and institution.
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Level 15ish, with wands, a Circlet of Spell Turning courtesy of loot from the Others, and who knows what else? Not the worst fight we've had, but definitely enough to get annoying.
 
Azel said:
And the political fallout of keeping her around? That the remaining Golden Shields mages will flock to her as the nucleus of an armed resistance against our rule? That the remaining Lannisters will likely close ranks around her and Gerion for the same reason you want to keep her?

I would have been willing to deal with all of this if she voluntarily came over to our side. Then I would have had at least a vague hope that she would report such problems instead of joining in on the plotting. But like this? No way.

Your divination scheme is flawed for the simple reason that it can't predict something that happens with the influence of a Mindblank. If she ever gets another Mindblank and starts plotting treason then, then Divination won't show it. Hell. It would be enough if she is contacted by someone under Mindblank for the information to not show, since her change of mind would be predicated on the actions of a Mindblanked individual and thus become undivinable. What worth is a mid-level caster when it means we might have 20+ of the new, devil improved Dragon-Murder-Construct 2.0 barreling down on us in a year?

You are offering assurances that aren't for a prize that isn't.
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Can we just agree to disagree for now, you have some good points, but I'm still not convinced we shouldn't give Lanna a chance, so I would really like to just wait and see what happens.
Ace of Scarabs said:
So we'd have to include them in our party and bring them along to feed them experience or something like that?
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Most get stuck at a milestone, and just can't level up further, at either level 5, or less commonly at level 10.
 
Ace of Scarabs said:
So we'd have to include them in our party and bring them along to feed them experience or something like that?
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PC level ceilings are 5, 10, and 15, afaik.
For each you have to break otherwise insurmountable odds.

Level 5 is something that can be broken with rigorous training and work.
Lots of stress.
Or a few adventures without dying. Which for level 5 is a lot to ask.

Level 10 is far harder. It is "Viserys and Mantarys'-arc level of stress and overcoming required.

Level 15 is... well, basically "sword an Archfiend's avatar to death"-level of overcoming.

We can make some of our mages in the background maybe go up to level 10, if we are very very lucky. But not beyond that.
 
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Ace of Scarabs said:
So we'd have to include them in our party and bring them along to feed them experience or something like that?
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Better to just let them level the natural adventurer way. There are plenty of opportunities for groups of every level to earn experience, either in the wilds of Planetos or off Plane entirely.

We can provide some help there, putting together teams of compatible and capable people, equipping them, allowing them to learn spells for free, etc., then set them loose pacifying a dangerous planet. Some will die, some will retire early or hit a level cap hey can't break through, but some will thrive and become truly powerful.
 
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tarrangar said:
Can we just agree to disagree for now, you have some good points, but I'm still not convinced we shouldn't give Lanna a chance, so I would really like to just wait and see what happens.
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I've pretty much given up on convincing you of anything and am mostly doing this for the audience to make up their mind.

Because when the moment comes, I will vote to permakill her and I do not care if you feel we should do a dozen Divinations and ask a few gods if it's really a good idea first.
 
egoo said:
PC level ceilings are 5, 10, and 15, afaik.
For each you have to break otherwise insurmountable odds.

Level 5 is something that can be broken with rigorous training and work.
Lots of stress.
Or a few adventures without dying. Which for level 5 is a lot to ask.

Level 10 is far harder. It is "Viserys and Mantarys'-arc level of stress and overcoming required.

Level 15 is... well, basically "sword an Archfiend's avatar to death"-level of overcoming.

We can make some of our mages in the background maybe go up to level 10, if we are very very lucky. But not beyond that.
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IIRC level 10 is the natural ceiling for dragonlords and greenseers.

True dragons and intelligent draconic creatures such as pseudodragons on the other hand have no level ceiling, instead they have to deal with level adjustment. Psuedodragons had like LA +2, IIRC.
 
Duesal said:
IIRC level 10 is the natural ceiling for dragonlords and greenseers.

True dragons and intelligent draconic creatures such as pseudodragons on the other hand have no level ceiling, instead they have to deal with level adjustment. Psuedodragons had like LA +2, IIRC.
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I thought DP said that Dragonlords have their cap raised to 15?
 
Goldfish said:
I thought DP said that Dragonlords have their cap raised to 15?
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Now I'm not sure which is correct. I remember Valaena's soft cap was 10 for a while. If it ended up being raised I didn't notice. We have obvious examples like Saenena and Malarys being stronger, so evidence does point in your direction.
 
@DragonParadox, would this technique here be sufficient to locate some of the portals leading from the PoE to Casterly Rock?
Azel said:
Hm... shouldn't be hard to divine the portal. Use a regular Divination to get a rough idea of where it is, then make it more precise with a Commune and lastly you can find the exact location by going near it and using Find the Path to locate the shortest route to Casterly Rock.
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