Threads Of Destiny(Eastern Fantasy, Sequel to Forge of Destiny)
- Thread starter yrsillar
- Start date
- Original Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Colorado
[] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
In my opinion this is the worst option. We don't need to court the Bao, they're the ones literally courting us and neither of the other options piss them off. We've got a good thing going with the Wang which is only going to improve with our recent military successes, we could eat some minor disapproval, but why when we don't have to? Getting some approval from the Diao would be nice, but as long as Shenhua lives we don't need to worry about them taking any direct action against us, so it's not vital. All that said it's the most reasonably phrased, if vague.
[] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
Suggesting cultural assimilation of a distant barbarian civilization is a pipe dream suggestion that should have the court thinking that we're a moron, I can only assume that we'll phrase things a bit differently if we pick this option, but I'm not going to bank on that. That being said this somehow gives us the best results from the old clans that we want to look good to, although pissing the Diao off even more seems like it's playing with fire. And it feels weird to come straight out of a military engagement and start talking up the cultural development of one of our opponents. Also wartime seems like a poor time to come off as being a barbarian sympathizer.
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
This option builds on our work with the Wang, and while we loose points with the Meng I find it difficult to care too much about Sun allies. And it doesn't loose us points with the Luo, which suggests this isn't something that the old tribes will all necessarily disagree with us on. It also has the advantage of not pissing off the Diao any more than they already are. On top of that several people have brought up that whatever option we pick CRX will have retroactively agreed to and helped us workshop. Most have used that to point out she approves of us pivoting away from the Wang if we pick the profit option, but by the same token it means if we pick the military option she agrees that its okay to pivot away from the Meng, if not the other old clans. Further, while this option implies the White Sky are still enemies, just not ones we need to fight, 'enemies you don't need to fight' is the first step on the road to eventually being 'not enemies', 'acquaintances', and maybe someday 'friends.'
One thing that people should remember is that while this is an important first impression for us in court, its significantly less important for long term relations with White Sky. The real debates on how everyone wants to handle that will happen once a hypothetical expedition returns with more information than a single barely understood conversation in the middle of a firefight.
In my opinion this is the worst option. We don't need to court the Bao, they're the ones literally courting us and neither of the other options piss them off. We've got a good thing going with the Wang which is only going to improve with our recent military successes, we could eat some minor disapproval, but why when we don't have to? Getting some approval from the Diao would be nice, but as long as Shenhua lives we don't need to worry about them taking any direct action against us, so it's not vital. All that said it's the most reasonably phrased, if vague.
[] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
Suggesting cultural assimilation of a distant barbarian civilization is a pipe dream suggestion that should have the court thinking that we're a moron, I can only assume that we'll phrase things a bit differently if we pick this option, but I'm not going to bank on that. That being said this somehow gives us the best results from the old clans that we want to look good to, although pissing the Diao off even more seems like it's playing with fire. And it feels weird to come straight out of a military engagement and start talking up the cultural development of one of our opponents. Also wartime seems like a poor time to come off as being a barbarian sympathizer.
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
This option builds on our work with the Wang, and while we loose points with the Meng I find it difficult to care too much about Sun allies. And it doesn't loose us points with the Luo, which suggests this isn't something that the old tribes will all necessarily disagree with us on. It also has the advantage of not pissing off the Diao any more than they already are. On top of that several people have brought up that whatever option we pick CRX will have retroactively agreed to and helped us workshop. Most have used that to point out she approves of us pivoting away from the Wang if we pick the profit option, but by the same token it means if we pick the military option she agrees that its okay to pivot away from the Meng, if not the other old clans. Further, while this option implies the White Sky are still enemies, just not ones we need to fight, 'enemies you don't need to fight' is the first step on the road to eventually being 'not enemies', 'acquaintances', and maybe someday 'friends.'
One thing that people should remember is that while this is an important first impression for us in court, its significantly less important for long term relations with White Sky. The real debates on how everyone wants to handle that will happen once a hypothetical expedition returns with more information than a single barely understood conversation in the middle of a firefight.
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[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
Culture seems like a terrible idea. We are basically saying: "I know nothing about you but you seem like slightly more civilised barbarians so how about you join our GREAT EMPIRE". I don't think the White Sky would see us in a favourable light for something like that.
The second problem is the Diao. With Linqin they probably have a lot of influence on Shenhua and pissing them off could be problematic. I think a positive relationship with Linqin could be very beneficial.
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
Culture seems like a terrible idea. We are basically saying: "I know nothing about you but you seem like slightly more civilised barbarians so how about you join our GREAT EMPIRE". I don't think the White Sky would see us in a favourable light for something like that.
The second problem is the Diao. With Linqin they probably have a lot of influence on Shenhua and pissing them off could be problematic. I think a positive relationship with Linqin could be very beneficial.
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MooGoesCow21
Just Listen to me....
- Location
- US Washington
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
- Location
- At the end of the world
Then why not trade like sensible people?
If we can understand it, then court can understand it too. It's most thorough but the slowest solution of them all and does nothing to help in current war.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
Speaker4thesilen
Superpower: Common Sense
- Location
- Noneya Business
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
- Location
- Staring into the void
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
- Location
- Earth
[X] To appeal to culture. She spoke a variant of the hill tribe tongue, and bore other markers of civilization. Better to bring into the fold as the Weilu and the Xi once did. (+Meng, +Luo approval, -Diao approval)
- Location
- Finland
Ah, opium wars, great idea.
Trade is not peace when it comes to empires.
In the end, are we the person who is all about money, war or trying to get along with the old ways?
I think that, as a person who wants to be the weird mystic person who deals with spirits as people, the cultural option is the only sensible one.
- Location
- Colorado
Another thing to consider is that the military option is the one that involves the least guesswork. Diplomatic representatives of White Sky flat out said they don't want to fight the Empire. It's a relatively safe initial approach that can be built on and modified as we gain more information. The other two options have a much less concrete foundation. Profit is basically 'She wore civilized people clothes so maybe they have trade goods we want' and Culture is 'We almost understood what she was saying, she's probably culturally similar to the hill tribes.'
It might be a good idea to counter any rumors about our 'flightiness' by presenting a more grounded proposal.
It might be a good idea to counter any rumors about our 'flightiness' by presenting a more grounded proposal.
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- Location
- At the end of the world
Thinking that it's all about LQ is a little arrogant, no? Also, even opium wars are better than genocide, no matter military or cultural.Ah, opium wars, great idea.
Trade is not peace when it comes to empires.
In the end, are we the person who is all about money, war or trying to get along with the old ways?
I think that, as a person who wants to be the weird mystic person who deals with spirits as people, the cultural option is the only sensible one.
Specifically the one thing stopping us from warring with the White Sky is that its too difficult for us to get our resources over there.
What puts a great deal of emphasis on moving resources around? Trade.
For an empire trade is the prelude to war and, given the Empire's values, a successful war will lead to genocide.
The Empire is talented, it can do both simultaneously.
- Location
- At the end of the world
That's reassuring, thanks.
- Location
- Finland
This vote is all about Ling Qi, we are not going to be able to dictate policy, this is about wether we side with the pragmatists, merchants or traditionalists.
Each pick will help us with 2, piss of 1, Culture is the choice that makes most sense for Ling Qi in my opinion, and is most beneficial as the person who was brought in to act asa bridge between traditionalists.
Anyway, this "cultural genocide" talk is way over the top anyway, they are too far for us to do much to them that they don't want us to.
What this vote is, on top of who Ling Qi is, is about why we should not make them into enemies, not what we should do to them.
Do we know how, why and when other tribes joined the empire? I would think that this is a very long term consideration, and given that we know very little of the White Sky tribe and there is, I think, quite a bit of conjecture in this option. The "romantic" option, in a way.
I think in the current situation cold reasoning will have more weight, rather than a (in my view, vage) hope that this tribe may be folded into the empire. Plus, this option carries the malus to the Diao approval, and I think the Diao approval is the most important one to get (other than Cai Shenhua's of course).
Diao approval would be the reason to vote for "profit", I think. Bao approval is something we should probably get in any case as long as we do not step on their interest (and their representative might even introduce the profit angle by themselves) and I feel the "military" argument to be more compelling in the current climate. This may of course be under the impression of the last updates and not reflective of the mood of the court, which I guess we do not know,
For now I will approval vote for both profit and military.
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
I think in the current situation cold reasoning will have more weight, rather than a (in my view, vage) hope that this tribe may be folded into the empire. Plus, this option carries the malus to the Diao approval, and I think the Diao approval is the most important one to get (other than Cai Shenhua's of course).
Diao approval would be the reason to vote for "profit", I think. Bao approval is something we should probably get in any case as long as we do not step on their interest (and their representative might even introduce the profit angle by themselves) and I feel the "military" argument to be more compelling in the current climate. This may of course be under the impression of the last updates and not reflective of the mood of the court, which I guess we do not know,
For now I will approval vote for both profit and military.
[X] To appeal to military pragmatism. If their enemies were divided there was no need to unite them. (+Wang, +Jia approval, -Meng approval)
[X] To appeal to profit. If there is another force out there civilizing the southernmost tribes, perhaps there is gain to be had? (+Bao, +Diao approval, -Wang approval)
