Warhammer Fantasy: A Dynasty of Dynamic Alcoholism

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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Raichu1972 said:
It is also perfectly acceptable to do diplomacy with foreign nations, especially with the implicit backing of the Emperor. What we have not done, is invite Kattarin, or the High King, or anyone else into what is ostensibly a meeting between Elector Counts.
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The Elector's Meet of 2325 on turn 22 might count. Meeting between Elector Counts where Freddy invited his sister-in-law extend the Ostland-Kislev alliance to the rest of the Empire.

There's probably a stronger case/perception for the Trident being in kahoots with Kislev than Laurelorn.
Then again, might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.
 
065tdsa said:
We're not actually inviting them into our power block. We're just meeting them, as a block, in order to finally make some headway with them. Because they're Wood Elves, and as anyone with sense knows they'd rather see the Empire burn than shed a single drop of their own blood.

Also, you miss the point. Because we're meeting with them either way. The only question is whether we're openly meeting them now, or making covert preparations to later openly meet them. But either way we're meeting them, and either way it'll be a dagger for others to stab us with. So the real question is, how well armored will we be when it is stabbing time? And the answer is that it depends on how many of our most prestigious members and supports haven't died. Because a single word from Magnus in our defense counts more than a hundred years of preparation.
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No, I'm really not. I'm aware that we're not out-and-out inviting them into our power bloc, if it can even be called that. But the fact of the matter is that that is how the rest of the Empire, especially the parts of the Empire hostile to us, are going to perceive it and react to it, and likely how they'll address it if they decide to confront us about it during the next Elector's Meet. I agree that we will be making diplomatic overtures with them inevitably, but can't help but disagree on what we can consider as "armour".

Sure, we'll be openly meeting them eventually. But by openly meeting them now, without seeking any sort of approval or advice from the main authority of the Empire itself before making open diplomatic alliances with a foreign power, then we're quite literally giving them a weapon to attack us with, when the next Elector's Meet rolls around. They can easily call this out as any number of things. Colluding with a foreign power, possibly acting against the Empire's best interest, etc. etc. Magnus is great, he likes us, and he's very reasonable. I think if we approached him with this diplomatic opportunity in an official capacity, he'd welcome it with open arms. But he's still the Emperor. If a bunch of Elector Counts accuse one of their number of colluding with a foreign power without the consent or knowledge of the rest of the Empire, in a manner that might destabilize the Emperor and the rest of the Elector Counts' authority, even if he trusts us, and knows that we wouldn't do anything to harm the Empire, he'd still have to treat the accusation seriously in his capacity as the Emperor. I think we'd probably win the ensuing political confrontation. But at the end of the day, whoever wins the confrontation, the Empire loses.

Bluntly speaking, I think we'd be better kicking the can down the road for a couple of years, getting official approval from Magnus to engage them in open diplomatic talks and meetings, and leaving those who will be burned by the alliance we're forging here with no real avenue of attack against it, even if it introduces a minimal risk of us, Stephan or Ortrud dying in the, what, five years it'd take to get this officially approved, tops? It's a risk, sure, but a rather slight one, I can't help but feel, and one that's significantly outweighed by the repercussions of rushing things just because "we might die".

Edit: And yes, I'm sure someone could make the argument about how we've done the same thing with Kislev and the Dwarfs and the High Elves or what have you, and they'd have something of a point. But that's that, and this is this. Kislev is a human state that the Empire's had plenty of dealings with in the past, the Dwarfs have been friends of mankind since the dawn of the Empire, and a High Elf founded the Colleges of Magic, and is a friend of the Emperor. Laurelorn, and the Wood Elves at large, are a group that the Empire as a whole has had very little in the way of dealings with, and many of those dealings have been decidedly hostile.
 
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[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.
 
Mopman43 said:
For whatever it's worth, do you think you could split that (and future posts) up a bit more? It'd help a great deal in communication, I know my eyes glaze over if there's more than a few lines of writing without a space.
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Ah, yeah, sorry about that. I tend to drone on and on once I get the ball rolling in my head and it all comes flowing out. Bit of a bad habit.
 
065tdsa said:
No I'm saying the perception of us doing bad stuff and potentially separating from the Empire is going to happen.
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Welp, I guess I now know which one I'm voting for now.
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.
 
torroar said:
"Regardless, it was Everqueen Camidys, daughter of Caradryel, who was ritually married to Tethlis, not Princess Finsoina. Instead, Princess Finsoina became one of Camidys own Handmaidens, becoming Chief Handmaiden eventually," she says in a rush. "Everqueen Allarielle is the daughter of Lothareann and Bel-Hathor, not Finubar, and the daughter of Allarielle and Finubar is young Aliandra."
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I rather like your attempt to make some kind of sense out of the canon system. God knows that GW never explained it.

Personally, my impression is that the ceremonial marriage is only when the Phoenix King is crowned, rather than either of them. (Also that Allarielle is Finubar's daughter, but you can certainly go any of a dozen ways for that one, canon certainly never went into it)

So, is Allarielle from the ceremonial marriage, and thus about 830 in quest-canon?


torroar said:
It is, apparently, finally too much for her. Eldyra steps forward and extends her arms to wrap them around you in a tight hug. One that you can't stop yourself from returning. You also realize that without you noticing Karl Thorpes is now fully blocking the doorway with all the bulk of a heavily muscled Ostlander. Not even the eagle eyes of a Wood Elf could see past him. Eldyra extends the hug for a few more seconds before stepping away. Her cheeks are a bit rosy now, not just from her emotions but from the pull of thunder-water she'd taken. You really weren't kidding. The variety that Karl prefers tastes vile but it is undeniably one of the most powerful varieties of shine that you've ever had, focused wholly on getting one as drunk as possible as quickly as possible.
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I can imagine that this scene (and the earlier ones discussing human mortality) at least partially stem from the threads near-constant discussion of whether Freddy can or should retire. For whatever it's worth, I don't regret my part in them at all, these conversations with Eldrya are my absolute favorite scenes in the whole Laurelorn arc.
 
This whole situation is reminding me of the phrase "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission"

at least that's how TheDuke's last dissertation made me feel lol
 
well that's just how the phrase goes, I don't think it's the best advice either.

In regards to dwarfs I might have just incited a grudge for stating that.

"Forgiveness to people who messed up on purpose? that's going in the book"
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.

There isn't really a reason to rush this.

A few reasons not to rush this,
Gives Ortud time to get comfortable with the idea
Gives Laurelorn and Athel Loren time to recover
Gives Stephan time to get comfortable with the idea
Allows us talk with the emperor
Allows us plan how to approach the dwarfs
Allows Naraiel think about how to approach her people about the idea, good thing that her highest-ranking caster and Morai-Wen will probably support the idea... But I don't think her son will be too happy about this
The political situation between Avelorn, Laurelorn and Athel Loren will be clearer

I mean to a certain extent the saying "It is easier to ask for forgiveness than permission" is true, and I guess there are advantages to striking while the iron is hot.
Might be helpful for us to work together against the beastmen if they decide to act now.

Seperate thing, I feel that there needs to be a third avatar of Isha (or similar elven god/dess... Orion doesn't really count as he is the opposite of stabiliy) to help make a balance between Everqueen and Ariel. Three is good for stability after all.

I hope that the wood elves can work out a way to come to deal with the dwarf Grudges, mostly to stop that whole conflict, wishful thinking but still...
 
There are threats right around the corner. The WAAAGHH! likely to come through Black Fire Pass. The Omen gearing up to attack somewhere even closer to home any year now. Norscans have been quiet for too long.

Stephen and Frederick are the best chances for this alliance to take hold any time soon. If these negotiations go quiet they could take a while. Time they might not have. If they die before things are solidified (from one of these threats or something else), they could take a lot longer if not fall apart.

And I'd prefer to have the alliance secured, along with benefits, before either of those big threats hit. And those could hit any turn now.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
spudman said:
There are threats right around the corner. The WAAAGHH! likely to come through Black Fire Pass. The Omen gearing up to attack somewhere even closer to home any year now. Norscans have been quiet for too long.

Stephen and Frederick are the best chances for this alliance to take hold any time soon. If these negotiations go quiet they could take a while. Time they might not have. If they die before things are solidified (from one of these threats or something else), they could take a lot longer if not fall apart.

And I'd prefer to have the alliance secured, along with benefits, before either of those big threats hit. And those could hit any turn now.
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Honestly, there's always threats right around the corner. Existence in Warhammer Fantasy is a constant fight for survival against a bunch of assholes that want to destroy everything you own just because it's there.
 
[X] Trident and Dawn: While Mena could have been more delicate and thought out about it, the idea does hold a bit of merit. An expediency and efficiency that you can certainly appreciate. Plus, the Trident Meeting last year was Stephan's, which means you're hosting this year. Which means you can invite whoever you want. It will be quite visible, however, even if her participation is short. On the other hand, the sooner you can get into it, the faster it will be done with, and hopefully for the better.
 
TheDuke said:
Honestly, there's always threats right around the corner. Existence in Warhammer Fantasy is a constant fight for survival against a bunch of assholes that want to destroy everything you own just because it's there.
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True, but the Omen in particular is a danger close to home and it'd be better to have the Asrai as firm allies as soon as we can.

Also, this is a chance at an alliance between provinces of the Empire and the Asrai in a way that hasn't happened before. Ever. The sooner we get this on paper, the less time there is for something to spring up and slow things down or outright ruin them before the alliance is secured.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
torroar said:
<Freddy and Eldyra. Just...just everything about them.>
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[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
Some of the southern empire is already nervous enough of the growing strength of the north.

[X] A Quieter Approach: Let her send her messengers, speak with Stephan, and the two of you can review her proposals at the Trident Meeting with Ortrud. Simply reviewing paperwork and messages is nothing new there. Far less likely to alarm anyone else. This doesn't have to be as quick as possible, after all, elven lives are long, are they not? It would give you time to get Ortud and possibly others more used to the idea.
 
TheDuke said:
No, I'm really not. I'm aware that we're not out-and-out inviting them into our power bloc, if it can even be called that. But the fact of the matter is that that is how the rest of the Empire, especially the parts of the Empire hostile to us, are going to perceive it and react to it, and likely how they'll address it if they decide to confront us about it during the next Elector's Meet. I agree that we will be making diplomatic overtures with them inevitably, but can't help but disagree on what we can consider as "armour".

Sure, we'll be openly meeting them eventually. But by openly meeting them now, without seeking any sort of approval or advice from the main authority of the Empire itself before making open diplomatic alliances with a foreign power, then we're quite literally giving them a weapon to attack us with, when the next Elector's Meet rolls around. They can easily call this out as any number of things. Colluding with a foreign power, possibly acting against the Empire's best interest, etc. etc. Magnus is great, he likes us, and he's very reasonable. I think if we approached him with this diplomatic opportunity in an official capacity, he'd welcome it with open arms. But he's still the Emperor. If a bunch of Elector Counts accuse one of their number of colluding with a foreign power without the consent or knowledge of the rest of the Empire, in a manner that might destabilize the Emperor and the rest of the Elector Counts' authority, even if he trusts us, and knows that we wouldn't do anything to harm the Empire, he'd still have to treat the accusation seriously in his capacity as the Emperor. I think we'd probably win the ensuing political confrontation. But at the end of the day, whoever wins the confrontation, the Empire loses.

Bluntly speaking, I think we'd be better kicking the can down the road for a couple of years, getting official approval from Magnus to engage them in open diplomatic talks and meetings, and leaving those who will be burned by the alliance we're forging here with no real avenue of attack against it, even if it introduces a minimal risk of us, Stephan or Ortrud dying in the, what, five years it'd take to get this officially approved, tops? It's a risk, sure, but a rather slight one, I can't help but feel, and one that's significantly outweighed by the repercussions of rushing things just because "we might die".

Edit: And yes, I'm sure someone could make the argument about how we've done the same thing with Kislev and the Dwarfs and the High Elves or what have you, and they'd have something of a point. But that's that, and this is this. Kislev is a human state that the Empire's had plenty of dealings with in the past, the Dwarfs have been friends of mankind since the dawn of the Empire, and a High Elf founded the Colleges of Magic, and is a friend of the Emperor. Laurelorn, and the Wood Elves at large, are a group that the Empire as a whole has had very little in the way of dealings with, and many of those dealings have been decidedly hostile.
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Laurelorn also already had diplomatic relations with Nordland as a result of Freddy's actions at the Bone Gate. Mostly just a ceasefire and some trade, but there have been a few Elector's Meet where a Trident member had a standing deal with Laurelorn already. And with Nordland's Heiress joining Ostland's Elector Count with 2k troops on her side to fight on behalf of Laurelorn, that kinda already looks like colluding with foreign power.

Kislev is a Human state. Kislev also used to raid the Empire for slaves and was founded when the Gospodars conquered Imperial clay.* They are more prominent as an antagonist(and a state) than those weirdo isolationist Elves who are super into Taal(or whatever version of Taal Elves worship). /Empire Citizen.

*though to be fair, Laurelorn did expand into Nordland after the Gruber campaign(even if said Nordlander clay was probably Laurelorn clay at some point).
 
Hangwind said:
@torroar could we get the Emperor in on this at the next Elector's Meet? Not drawing the whole of the Empire into the treaty, but rather getting his seal of approval on the talks, so as to make it properly official.
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Possibly.

Something to keep in mind at the moment:

torroar said:
"Are we talking about some kind of treaty, here? Between the Empire and Laurelorn?"

"I know you and Stephan. It is you two I feel I can – Isha forgive me – trust," she makes a cutting motion with one hand. "I do not know your Emperor, or the other Electors. Marienburg has none, and those of the west have often coveted our woods."

Well, Marienburg covets just about anything in the world that it doesn't have.

"Magnus the Pious is the best Emperor we've had since Sigmar," you tell her earnestly. "I don't know anyone who could possibly have managed the support of the Gods and the people across all of the provinces, nor who could have matched Asavar Kul without Ghal Maraz."

She frowns at you.

"Perhaps. I shall reserve judgement, but for now…no. It is with Nordland and Ostland that I would deal with.
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