On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
It might be a small chance that the bolt thrower is attacked or disrupted, but it would be an absolute catastrophe that would pretty much guarantee that we lost.
Going to fight with Otrek is a classic example of overreach of spreading ourself too thin by trying to do everywhere. As Sun Tzu said, he who is strong everywhere is strong nowhere.
On the Chaos Dwarves, the impact is even bigger than people have said so far, as it was they who the greenskins learned to work metal from, via slaves they'd trained escaping. Before that, they, like humans, were still in the Stone Age. Now, that isn't as big a handicap for them as it was for other people, but it's still a very big deal come the time of woe.
Another huge butterfly is to humanity. Many of the humans of the northern Old World were refugees from what would become the Darklands, pushed out by Iron Age orcs the Stone and later Bronze Age human tribes could no longer resist given the climate changes that favoured the greenskins. Without the Chaos Dwarves indirectly arming the greenskins and screwing with the climate by polluting the rivers and killing the vegetation, none of that should happen. Human settlement of the northern old world should follow completely different patterns.
The dwarves of the Great Skull Lands staying loyal should also mean we remain in contact with the Karaks of the Mountains of Mourne, which will probably means we will be able to trade with Cathay, which would be interesting.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
I hoped the banner would be useful, it is far beyond that point, really awesome =)
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Reckoner: Its strike will deal terrible damage, but it must hit. Less damage than the Retaliator, but it leaves the other Bolt Thrower free to kill the other Dragon Ogres with abandon. +50 to first Hit.
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
"Compliments of Stephan von KesselSkozulladrakk, you fat fuck!"
Now is the hour. Now is the time. We fight by our King! We fight by our feathered allied! We fight by our teacher! For the sake of all the Dwarfs and Griffons of Norsca!
And as for which bolt thrower to use... Well, we built it -- the Retaliator -- to help kill Kholek Suneater, so let's use it on Kholek Suneater, mwahaha. ... Gah, I wish we'd used our one incoming-per-turn Adamant bar on the Ancestral Aegis banner. We probably should have done that. It'd have boosted the runes sure. But mainly, it would've been made of Pure Adamant rather than Pure Gromril while holding the Runes of the Ancestors. Oh well.
Question @soulcake. Is it possible to reshape or reforge a runic item, and then still keep the reagent-boosted property of the rune bonus from it? Namely: can we turn the Dragon's Spite into a halberd, lance or spear after this battle? While still keeping the Frost Dragon Brain-boost on the Master Rune of Currents and Frost Rune?
Failing that: can a bolt thrower bolt be wielded as another weapon? Like a lance? (I mean, Dwarfs don't do cavalry, but others do. Though also some lances get used on foot so hey.) If the Griffon King were to rip out the bolt from Kholek and try to use it as an improvised weapon, would that work?
Or... can he target it with his frost powers? It's even got frost powers itself. If he could channel it through it, and into Kholek's internals...
Heh. If this were anything else other than a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, I'd ask excitedly about the possibility of the "Target lightning on a weapon stuck in the monster, in order to strike its insides with lightning!" trick, but lightning makes these wake up so... What about targeting it with frost powers instead? Or, can Snorri tap the impaled bolt with his hammer and do that "activate some runic effect" thing he does with his necklace sometimes? Or failing that: maybe he can just hammer or shove the bolt further into the Shaggoth... and it might even count as a "this weapon is now being used by somebody; ergo, the Runic effects go off!" thing; might count as if the weapon were being used. (At minimum, it would be being used by somebody with "a Grudge against Kholek" to boot.)
I'd ask about adding Adamant to the Ancestral Aegis too, but -- I think melting down an item you made in order to make a superior version of it, probably rubs across the whole "pride" thing. Because, well, it's saying that your work wasn't good enough the first time. Whereas at least with the bolt thrower bolt, it'd be because Kholek would be dead, and so repurposing it into a will-probably-see-use-more-often weapon like a halberd or lance or spear would at least be understandable; you'd just be changing the shape of it, so that it can be used by Dwarfs in melee from now on.
Though, I guess it could just keep getting used as a bolt for a bolt thrower afterwards anyway.
If not for our Banner, and possibly deploying it at a very specific time (either not too soon or not too late or both) it would have been a literally impossible and unbelievable event.
Actually, I wonder if it was something the Ancestors did rather than our Banner?
Namely... That Heart of the Sky King that the Griffon King handed over to the Karaz Ankor a few decades ago? Maybe the Dwarfs were able to use it to boost the power going to Dwarf holds or to Runecraft, or just boost their personal Ancestor Runes, or something. Or maybe it wasn't the Heart directly (maybe it's just sitting in a vault somewhere safe, or perhaps it got handed back to him after the Ancestor Gods had a look at it and determined his sincerity), but something the Ancestors were able to take care of because they had the opportunity that came from allying with a Griffon Demigod.
Maybe it's not that our banner is unexpectedly sending power; maybe it's unexpectedly receiving power? Because the Ancestors are doing something.
But, uh, yes -- if you're right, and if it was our Banner that did this, if it did end up being us responsible for this, then, wow... What a surprise. What good news.
(... Though, I am now worrying about us rolling a horrible fail for some canon event -- like the Ancestors fighting off Chaos or closing the Gate or the Elves creating the Maelstrom, or whatever -- in exchange. D: )
Heh. If this were anything else other than a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, I'd ask excitedly about the possibility of the "Target lightning on a weapon stuck in the monster, in order to strike its insides with lightning!" trick, but lightning makes these wake up so... What about targeting it with frost powers instead?
Ice to the core is actually more deadly than lightning...if you can get it below the blood's freezing point. Because frozen blood occupies more space than liquid blood, the target explodes.
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
It's a hard dilemma, to stay on the front line, or to go to the bolt thrower. I'm actually torn on both choices.
On the one hand, our best shot at hurting/killing Kholek is the Bolt + Retributor combo.
But the Reckoner's disguise ability makes it less likely to attract attention from gods/demons, and Rangerstrike combo is perfect for the occasion. It also frees the +35 bonus on the Retributor to be used on other dragon ogers, while waiting for the perfect shot.
I'd be much more confident with leaving the Reckoner unwatched, than the Retributor
Us being next to the bolt thrower gives us a chance to intervene against the interference... which WILL probably happen, as otherwise we wouldn't have gotten the option to stay behind.
But then again, thanks to our traits, we have a measurable impact on the frontline. Unbreakable, unitiring dwarfs and better coordinated runesmiths is not something that can be laughed off.
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
[x] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Reckoner: Its strike will deal terrible damage, but it must hit. Less damage than the Retaliator, but it leaves the other Bolt Thrower free to kill the other Dragon Ogres with abandon. +50 to first Hit.
[X] [Battle] Stay by the Bolt Thrower: you'll guard the siege engine firing Dragon's Spite with the Group of Huskarls and Runesmiths assigned to the task, making sure no sabotage or destruction can come upon by tricksy daemons. It means you aren't close enough to aid Otrek with your weapons OR your runes.
[X] [Thrower] The Reckoner: Its strike will deal terrible damage, but it must hit. Less damage than the Retaliator, but it leaves the other Bolt Thrower free to kill the other Dragon Ogres with abandon. +50 to first Hit.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Reckoner: Its strike will deal terrible damage, but it must hit. Less damage than the Retaliator, but it leaves the other Bolt Thrower free to kill the other Dragon Ogres with abandon. +50 to first Hit.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
It can be grim? You just need to look at the worse off places to see how grim it is.
For the dwarves they lost so much after the golden age was over with holds lost to orcs, skaven or goblins and the underway is also being claimed by them especially the skaven.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Reckoner: Its strike will deal terrible damage, but it must hit. Less damage than the Retaliator, but it leaves the other Bolt Thrower free to kill the other Dragon Ogres with abandon. +50 to first Hit.
[X] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
Thinking more speculatively about butterflies, if we're spectacularly lucky we may have unknowingly laid the groundwork to change Malekeith's fate.
That's because he seemed to start going bad after finding a magical artifact, the Iron Circlet in a ruined city in the Chaos Wastes north of the Old World while going adventuring.
The reason he was there in the first place is because he was sent to the Old World as the commander of the elven expeditionary armies that were dispatched to assist their dwarven allies in cleansing their lands of Chaotic remnants. Now, in canon, he and Snorri Whitebeard only cleansed the Old World excluding Norsca, as the Karaz Ankor assumed all the dwarves elsewhere had died. Now, this isn't the case at all now. They'll know (some of) the Norscan holds have held, so the allied armies are very likely to come here. Hopefully, the Ancestors' strengthened protection of Karak Uzkul means the dwarves there won't flee south (and fall to Hashut in four to five hundred years), and combined with the survival of the Norscan holds and the Underway connection half way there (to Karak Dum) the alliance forces will go to their relief. At that point, if things continue to go well, the expeditionary forces will then be in position to go to the relief of the Karaks in the Mountains of Mourne.
Now, what this would mean that Malkieth will be busy fighting chaos remnants alongside Snorri for much longer than in canon, which simply leaves him less time to explore the Chaos Wastes. It also takes him to other places to stick his nose into other things, such as meeting the Sky Titans in the Mountains of Mourne, the more civilized pre-Maw Ogres, or encountering what's going on in what may become Cathay and Ind, when he ends up at the south of the Mountains of Mourne.
But then again, thanks to our traits, we have a measurable impact on the frontline. Unbreakable, unitiring dwarfs and better coordinated runesmiths is not something that can be laughed off.
Is it the case that, when the ancestors' runes lit up for the eastern dwarfs, it was a two way connection?
As in, the dwarfs were heartened by the gods not abandoning them, and simultaneously, the gods were reminded of the eastern dwarfs by their runes activating there.
I thought that the "the humans came from the Darklands/Wolf Lands" bit was, as veekie put it, "an Ulrican Garden Of Eden Legend." Or, as BoneyM put it, that a "single IC source lists the Wolf Lands as a probable origin for some of the Empire's precursor tribes". The Dwarfs record some migrations of humans over to the west, and some of them had similar-sounding names. But then, it was also the start of the Age of Woes and even Dwarf recordkeeping suffered...
This is something I see a lot. As far as my own research has shown, single IC source lists the Wolf Lands as a probable origin for some of the Empire's precursor tribes. Somewhere along the way all the ambiguity and unreliable narration gets stripped away, and it's being repeated in threads like this that it's the original homeland of all humanity. I found posts at least as far back as 2014 repeating this as fact.
The wiki says that this one migration was from the Border Princes and the steppes beyond the World's Edge Mountains. So some amount of them, the Border Prince ones for example, could have been from Nehekhara. So you could have had humans coming from the east and the south. Some of the timing could fit with the fall of Nehekhara (around -1151 is when the Great Ritual happened, but even years before that you had warring against Nagash; could have been a lot of refugees from that) as its noted the migration came roughly around -1000 IC. In fact, I wonder if the settlers or people of the Dark Lands were Nehekharan (or a mix if Nehekharan and Cathayan?) settlers; who just started migrating back to the east because conditions in the Dark Lands started becoming really bad and there were orcs and goblins everywhere.
So. A probable myth. Or even just the taking of and then distortion of the account; "one of the places humans have been migrating from is the east, some of the tribal names seem similar to that of future Empire founding tribes." But which got taken as a sure thing, and brought up and repeated in threads, and then eventually it became "known fact" that 'this was the mythical original homeland of humanity'. Kinda like it happens with other obscure references, myths, or stories about really old times. =/
Heck, for one example, I know that sometimes the Doom of Kavzar got interpreted as "Aha, these humans built this belltower... and then must have been the first to get turned into the first Skaven" when even just a simple reading of that story shows that the story says that the rats came to Kavzar. That when the humans finally descended into the Dwarfs' territory, they found that there was naught but bones left... and found that they were surrounded by endless swarms of rats.
It looks like a Skaven raid of the surface for warpstone that fell from meteors -- just the first one that got noticed and recorded and had the records survive. Possibly the Skaven helped cause the warpstorm, with the belltower. Possibly the belltower was just a way for them to hone in on Kavzar/Tylos and make their way there. Or to lay down a curse on the town to isolate it from help and make it easier to invade.
Adhoc vote count started by Ancient Scholar on May 1, 2020 at 5:36 AM, finished with 183 posts and 95 votes.
[X] [Thrower] The Retaliator: Use it, train it on Kholek, though it will mean it won't be firing at the other Dragon Ogres present, and must still hit Kholek. +70 to Hit on Kholek, you won't see these rolls but +35 killing Dragon Ogres.
[x] [Battle] Join Otrek: You entrust your weapon's safety to the Huskarls and Master Runesmiths guarding it. You are no prodigious fighter, but your Runes and if need be, your axe, will be useful regardless. Otrek and the King of the Skies will need all the help they can get.
[X] [Thrower] The Reckoner: Its strike will deal terrible damage, but it must hit. Less damage than the Retaliator, but it leaves the other Bolt Thrower free to kill the other Dragon Ogres with abandon. +50 to first Hit.
