The Beginning of the End - A West Roman Empire Quest

I actually plan on breaking Nepos at Ravenna or Rome. If we can defeat him on our home turf and perhaps even capture him, we can much easier secure our position with the ERE since it'll be in self-defense rather than aggression on our part. That, and we'll have put an end to his ambitions if we can win convincingly enough. It'll buy us more time to prepare militarily too since we only have 2 Legions at our disposal come next turn, and one of them will be busy in Gallia, not a great start for a war.
The issue with that focus is it treats it like our main problem with Nepos and the ERE at large is legitimacy. It's not, and it hasn't been since we beat Odaecer. Unless you are prepared to bow the knee to Constantinople both spiritually and politically, cold conflict with Constantinople is inevitable. It's not enough to be stable because the ERE doesn't want only stability in Italy. They want the empire, their empire, to maintain some form of control over it. For so long as we act like equals rather than having Romulus be a lesser co-emperor, there will be conflict.

Like, Nepos isn't some problem. He's a symptom. The Empire in the East wants a pliable client in Rome, not an equal. We even undermined their authority with our recent purging and taking on of spiritual titles that are only supposed to be the Constantinople Ecunemical Patriarch's job to hand out to the Emperor in the East. They aren't suddenly going to go, "kay, we cool with you bruh now that Nepos is gone." For so long as we exist and don't act subservient (and I doubt anyone here is willing to act like a puppet), our position with the ERE will never be completely secure. That's Roman politics.

That is why the best case right now would be to prepare a march on Dalmatia. We take care of the issue ourselves, quickly and before they can protest. We are still within our legal rights to do so, and it prevents any shenanigans from going on. Nepos, for the moment, is understaffed. We won't need more than one legion to deal with him if we act quickly. It's not going to be a "war" at all. It's going to be a skirmish and quick occupation. It's not like we are planning on annexing the area after all.
 
The issue with that focus is it treats it like our main problem with Nepos and the ERE at large is legitimacy. It's not, and it hasn't been since we beat Odaecer. Unless you are prepared to bow the knee to Constantinople both spiritually and politically, cold conflict with Constantinople is inevitable. It's not enough to be stable because the ERE doesn't want only stability in Italy. They want the empire, their empire, to maintain some form of control over it. For so long as we act like equals rather than having Romulus be a lesser co-emperor, there will be conflict.

Like, Nepos isn't some problem. He's a symptom. The Empire in the East wants a pliable client in Rome, not an equal. We even undermined their authority with our recent purging and taking on of spiritual titles that are only supposed to be the Constantinople Ecunemical Patriarch's job to hand out to the Emperor in the East. They aren't suddenly going to go, "kay, we cool with you bruh now that Nepos is gone." For so long as we exist and don't act subservient (and I doubt anyone here is willing to act like a puppet), our position with the ERE will never be completely secure. That's Roman politics.

That is why the best case right now would be to prepare a march on Dalmatia. We take care of the issue ourselves, quickly and before they can protest. We are still within our legal rights to do so, and it prevents any shenanigans from going on. Nepos, for the moment, is understaffed. We won't need more than one legion to deal with him if we act quickly. It's not going to be a "war" at all. It's going to be a skirmish and quick occupation. It's not like we are planning on annexing the area after all.
If we act as the aggressors, the cold war will turn hot as the ERE will have casus belli to act in defense of Nepos as it'll be us attacking a fellow Roman out of the blue or however they spin it. If Nepos is the aggressor, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on to justify open war with us. As we are now, we can't stand against the ERE so we oughta do our best to maneuver around them. Let Nepos make his move, we'll break him on our shore and sweep Dalmatia from there.

It's merely buying us time by treating the symptom, yes, but as we are now, we can't actually treat the disease itself. Once we grow stronger sure, but not right now.
 
If we act as the aggressors, the cold war will turn hot as the ERE will have casus belli to act in defense of Nepos as it'll be us attacking a fellow Roman out of the blue or however they spin it. If Nepos is the aggressor, they wouldn't have a leg to stand on to justify open war with us. As we are now, we can't stand against the ERE so we oughta do our best to maneuver around them. Let Nepos make his move, we'll break him on our shore and sweep Dalmatia from there.

It's merely buying us time by treating the symptom, yes, but as we are now, we can't actually treat the disease itself. Once we grow stronger sure, but not right now.
No they won't. It may be an open secret that Nepos is plotting against us and still claims to be the emperor, but the emphasis is still on open. A quick policing action under these circumstances is within our legal jurisdiction to do and they shouldn't be able to overtly act against us for doing it, which is what I've been saying!
 
No they won't. It may be an open secret that Nepos is plotting against us and still claims to be the emperor, but the emphasis is still on open. A quick policing action under these circumstances is within our legal jurisdiction to do and they shouldn't be able to overtly act against us for doing it, which is what I've been saying!
I'll trust you on that then. Here's hoping we roll well enough on the recruit action to get a full strength legion rather than a understrength one to out Nepos down.

Switched Heavy Cavalry Reformation for War with Nepos.
 
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I'll trust you on that then. Here's hoping we roll well enough on the recruit action to get a full strength legion rather than a understrength one to out Nepos down.

Switched Heavy Cavalry Reformation for War with Nepos.
While I appreciate that I appear to have actually gotten through to someone for literally the first time on a major issue, you should probably consult with the people voting for your plan before doing that. It would be unfair to them; seeing as if they thought a war with Nepos was wise, they likely would have voted my plan. Hard to say that for sure since most voters here have been silent, but it would still be a bit undemocratic. Zora, at the least, isn't convinced.

By the way, you mentioned looking for lucrative areas to expand without risking overexpansion - Hispania would make for a good target. It would require investment, but they still have significant gold and copper mines that haven't been used since the 3rd century. Historically, there was a lot of gypsum and silver mined there too, but I don't know if those have been mined out by this century yet or not. It would also be a long-term target though because those mines are in central and northwest Hispania.

The one place we should never go is Britannia (and Hibernia). The place barely has an significant resources beyond timber* and most of its little infrastructure from its short stint as a Roman province has rotted away. Its people aren't exactly heavily romanized compared to the rest of the empire either.

*Mostly lead, but also some tin in Cornwall, a little bit of iron around Londinium, and (relatively) small mines of gold and copper in Wales. Its best resource is the absolute abundance of lead, but I am not sure we would want to begin using that in great quantities again.
 
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Voting is closed!
Adhoc vote count started by Jax on Mar 29, 2020 at 3:42 AM, finished with 21 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Plan Realm Defense
    -[X] Military
    --[X] Recruit more troops (+2 Skill progress)
    ---[X] Form a Legion (Gain 1x Legion)
    --[X] Plan a military expedition (+3 Skill progress, War!)
    ---[X] Against Julius Nepos
    --[X] Reintroduce drafting to the Empire (+3 Skill progress, -1 Stability)
    --[X] Begin the reformation of the Navy (+3 Skill progress, ???)
    --[X] Sent troops to …
    ---[X] Syagrius, he needs reinforcement (???)
    -[X] Civilian
    --[X] None
    -[X] Diplomacy
    --[X] Establish a ambassador at … (+1 Skill progress for each)
    ---[X] The Burgundians
    [X] Plan: Extinguishing Fires
    -[X] Recruit more troops (+2 Skill progress)
    --[X] Form a Legion (Gain 1x Legion)
    -[X] Reforme the Military (+3 Skill progress, ???)
    --[X] Focus on heavy cavalry
    -[X] Sent troops to …
    --[X] Syagrius, he needs reinforcement (???)
    --- [X] Send our second legion if it succeeds in being raised
    -[X] Plan a military expedition (+3 Skill progress, War!)
    --[X] Against Julius Nepos
    -[X] Establish a ambassador at … (+1 Skill progress for each)
    --[X] the Vandals
    --[X] the Burgundians
Jax threw 2 6-faced dice. Reason: Recruit more troops Total: 6
4 4 2 2
Jax threw 2 6-faced dice. Reason: Plan an Expedition Total: 6
1 1 5 5
Jax threw 2 6-faced dice. Reason: Reintroduce drafting Total: 6
2 2 4 4
Jax threw 3 6-faced dice. Reason: The Navy Total: 11
2 2 6 6 3 3
Jax threw 3 6-faced dice. Reason: Sent Troops: Syagrius Total: 6
4 4 1 1 1 1
Jax threw 2 6-faced dice. Reason: Ambassador to Burgundians Total: 10
6 6 4 4
 
A small note from me why Updates will come a bit slower than before. On tuesday this week I became a father and with a newborn in the house things get a bit complicated.

Still, I will contiue to write this, just so you know why I even in this crisis write slower than usuall for me.

Stay safe and healthy, people!
 
A small note from me why Updates will come a bit slower than before. On tuesday this week I became a father and with a newborn in the house things get a bit complicated.

Still, I will contiue to write this, just so you know why I even in this crisis write slower than usuall for me.

Stay safe and healthy, people!
Understandable. Good luck to you and everyone else as well! :D
 
A small note from me why Updates will come a bit slower than before. On tuesday this week I became a father and with a newborn in the house things get a bit complicated.

Still, I will contiue to write this, just so you know why I even in this crisis write slower than usuall for me.

Stay safe and healthy, people!
Congratulations, and stay safe!
 
Planing for War over Dalmatia
Progress Counter

This shows you what might happen in a number of turns. Note, this shows only the dangers your character is aware of.

Julius Nepos moves: 4 / 5
Vandals take south Italy: 3 / 5
Alemanni attack Gaul 2 / 5
Alans attack Gaul 2 / 5
Christianity Schisma 2 / 3
Burgundian Civil War 2 / 10

# + # + # +
The year 478 A.D. was set for War. Orestes made sure his expansion in the military didn't come to a stop. A second Legion was created on his order, but this time it took longer until the unit was formed. This was most likely thanks to a mixture of a lack of equipment and recruits. Still, the second Legion was founded and added to the slowly growing military power in Italy. Both units were stationed in the north of the peninsular under the guise of the protection of Italy. Of course, we know that this was a ruse by Orestes as he was already planning an expedition into Dalmatia. Not only would this be done to bring the first province back under the direct control of Rome, but it would also allow the removing Julius Nepos. This would eliminate the last pretender for his son's throne and secure Oreste's family in the saddle.

The planning took most of the winter and saw many scouts being sent into Nepos realm. At the same time, more and more troops gathered at the border, and supply depots were established. At the same time, a letter was sent to Emperor Zeno. In it, he was informed of what was going to happen. Orestes made it clear that he now had more than enough troops at his disposal to take control of Dalmatia. He also pleaded for Zeno to do nothing as this was an internal matter of the West and would help to stabilize the Empire as a whole. In his answer, Zeno didn't openly agree to the conquest of Dalmatia, but he stated that he agreed, this was an internal matter of the Western Throne. With this agreement at his back, Orestes began his planning in the open. Many historians see this as the best example of Zeno needing to be pragmatic when it came to his not much-loved brother Emperor in the West. As he was facing an unstable Empire himself, a stronger Western Empire was playing into his hands.

The preparations didn't go without the notice of Julius Nepos, but there was little he could do. His troops were loyal to him, but the new strength of Rome was far higher than anything he could send into the field. For the longest time, he had mostly relied on the silent protection of Zeno, as he waited for a chance to regain his throne. Even if no text about his view of things remains, one can imagine his anger and disappear as his destiny grew closer.

One of the most dramatic changes Orestes reintroduced to West Rome was drafting. Not since the days of the Republic had been citizen been allowed to be drafted into the military. It was with the help of his son that he managed to get the public to agree to the reintroduction of drafting. They accepted it, even if many weren't happy about it. Nobody could deny that it was necessary to secure what was left of the Empire.

New Unit can be recruited: Citizen Legion (2d6 when Fighting on Roman territory; costs are 1 Stability per unit)

Especially in the South of Italy, where the Vandals tended to raid often, the numbers of volunteers were high when the news spread that the Emperor began constructing a new Navy. So high was the number of volunteers that it was to many who wanted to join the Navy. To use this high number of human resources, Orestes ordered that these men would first be used in the building of the ships before they all would be expected into the Navy. It seemed like the Navy was up to a beautiful start.

As soon as the weather allowed it, Orestes sent a column of five thousand to Syagrius as reinforcement. The Magister militum of Gaul was hard-pressed and begged Romulus Augustus for aid in defense of the small territory still held in the name of Rome. It was Syagrius' humble appeal that made Orestes agree to the request, as the man only saw himself as a servant of Rome and hadn't declared himself Emperor. The march of the column lead trough the territory of the Burgundy, who was less than thrilled that a Roman army was marching trough their lands - and shocked.

This was made better by the arrival of an official ambassador of Romulus Augustus at the court of the Burgundian kingdom. He explained why the column was marching north and that they hadn't to fear anything from it. As an official at least, they were part of the vast Empire. It helped to calm the more hotheaded barbarians. At the same time, the ambassador wrote a report back to Orestes. In it, he described how the Burgundians stood shortly before a civil war as Gundobad, the murderer of the Emperor Anthemius, tried to subjugate his brothers after the death of his father four years ago. Practical, the Burgundians couldn't wage war any time soon.

New Progress Counter: Burgundian Civil War 2 / 10 replaces Burgundian's take north Italy: 2 / 5


# + # + # +

Choose 6 actions!

Military - 3 (0/15 next Skill point)
-Trait: Ravenna - Strong defence +2d6 Military
-Trait: Rome - Normal defence +1d6 Military
-Trait: Legion, +1d6 for each Legion send on a Campaign (Current Number of Legion's 2)
-Trait: Citizen Legion, +2d6 when Fighting on Roman territory, outside like a Legion

[ ] War against Nepos
-[ ] Sent out skirmishers to test the enemy (+1 Skill progress, +1 Dice Result for Invasion)
-[ ] Beginn Invision of Dalmatia(+3 Skill progress)
[ ] Recruit more troops (+2 Skill progress)
-[ ] Form a Legion (Gain 1x Legion)
-[ ] Form a Citizen Legion (Gain x Legion for the same amount of Stability)
[ ] Reforme the Military (+3 Skill progress, ???)
-[ ] Focus on heavy infantry
-[ ] Focus on light infantry
-[ ] Focus on heavy cavalry
-[ ] Focus on light cavalry
[ ] Begin the construction of Navel Yards(+3 Skill progress, ???)
[ ] Hire foederati from Barbarian Lands (Gain Trait: Foederati Troops +?d6)
-[ ] Write-in who
[ ] Plan a military expedition (+3 Skill progress, War!)
-[ ] Against the Vandals
-[ ] Against Julius Nepos
-[ ] Against the Ostrogoths
-[ ] Against the Burgundians
-[ ] Against the Visigoths
-[ ] Against the Alemanni
-[ ] Against the Alans
-[ ] Write-in
[ ] Sent troops to …
-[ ] Armorica, the Britons need the protection of the Empire (???)

Civilian - 4 (4 / 20 next Skill point)
-Trait: Support of the Common Men +1d6 against Senators

[ ] Strengthen the image of your son in the public's eye (+1 Skill progress, +1 Stability)
[ ] Reorganist the Civil Administration (+3 Skill Progress, +1 Stability)
[ ] Restore Rome …
-[ ] Repair the Forum (+1 Skill Progress)
-[ ] Repair the Walls (+1 Skill Progress, +1 Stability)
[ ] Order public works on …
-[ ] Monument to honor …
--[ ] Your son (+1 Stability, ???)
--[ ] Yourself (+1 Stability, ???)
[ ] Write-in

Diplomacy - 2 (2/10 next Skill point)

[ ] Ask East Rome for … (+2 Skill Progress)
-[ ] Troops
-[ ] Money
-[ ] Write-in
[ ] Ask the Burgundians for … (+2 Skill Progress)
-[ ] Troops
-[ ] Money
-[ ] Write-in
[ ] Try to force a Civil War in the Burgundian Realm (+2 Skill Progress)
[ ] Sent an envoy to … (+1 Skill Progress)
-[ ] Julius Nepos (-1 on all Results)
--[ ] Demand his submission
--[ ] Write-in what you wish to do
-[ ] Germanic Kingdoms
--[ ] Write-in to who
---[ ] Recognize their realm
---[ ] Demand tribute in troops or money
[ ] Establish a ambassador at … (+1 Skill progress for each)
-[ ] the Vandals
-[ ] the Ostrogoths
-[ ] the Burgundians
-[ ] the Visigoths
-[ ] Write-in
[ ] Write-in
--[ ] Write-in
 
Orestes made it clear that he now had more than enough troops at his disposal to take control of Dalmatia. He also pleaded for Zeno to do nothing as this was an internal matter of the West and would help to stabilize the Empire as a whole. In his answer, Zeno didn't openly agree to the conquest of Dalmatia, but he stated that he agreed, this was an internal matter of the Western Throne.
And that's the final nail of the coffin for the Pretender. I'm inclined to just send him a letter promising a golden parachute and all sins forgiven should he surrender, because at this point he can really only make this painful for us.
Especially in the South of Italy, where the Vandals tended to raid often, the numbers of volunteers were high when the news spread that the Emperor began constructing a new Navy. So high was the number of volunteers that it was to many who wanted to join the Navy. To use this high number of human resources, Orestes ordered that these men would first be used in the building of the ships before they all would be expected into the Navy. It seemed like the Navy was up to a beautiful start.
That's encouraging. Not being in control of something literally called Our Sea is an unacceptable humiliation as well as a strategic disaster.
This was made better by the arrival of an official ambassador of Romulus Augustus at the court of the Burgundian kingdom. He explained why the column was marching north and that they hadn't to fear anything from it. As an official at least, they were part of the vast Empire. It helped to calm the more hotheaded barbarians. At the same time, the ambassador wrote a report back to Orestes. In it, he described how the Burgundians stood shortly before a civil war as Gundobad, the murderer of the Emperor Anthemius, tried to subjugate his brothers after the death of his father four years ago. Practical, the Burgundians couldn't wage war any time soon.
Now that's unexpected. It's certainly good to hear that they won't be a problem in the near future, I suppose of real question is whether we want to get involved or not.
 
[X] Plan: Pen and Swords
-[X] War against Nepos
--[X] Sent out skirmishers to test the enemy (+1 Skill progress, +1 Dice Result for Invasion)
--[X] Begin Invision of Dalmatia(+3 Skill progress)
---[X] Send the First Legion
--[X] Begin the construction of Naval Yards(+3 Skill progress, ???)
-[X] Sent troops to …
--[X] Armorica, the Britons need the protection of the Empire (???)
-[X] Reorganise the Civil Administration (+3 Skill Progress, +1 Stability)
-[X] Establish a ambassador at … (+1 Skill progress for each)
--[X] the Vandals

Okay, so the first two options + the First Legion are to make this action as quick and painless as possible by having 5 dice rolling for it. I know Lonely talked about offering him a way out, but we only have two dice on diplomacy and a -1 to all diplomacy with him so it is unlikely to succeed. I put the ambassador there both to sound out what the current state of the Vandals is like, and to give us another skill progress so we can eventually get a third die in the category. The reorganization is because we are at 4/10 stability after starting drafting, so we should go ahead and start gathering more to keep things safe. The Naval Yards is just to further along the reformation of the navy. The Armorica option is because since we intend to hold Gallia, it would be useful in the future to be able to protect the whole of the coastline from raiders.
 
[X] Plan: Pen and Swords

I can agree to this plan. Once we finish wrecking Nepos, we really should sound out the neighboring kingdoms and other polities. Should help us get a clearer picture of outside threats and possible opportunities.

As for the Burgundians, this sounds like a excellent time to get another vassal and buffer state between us and other barbarians. Probably best not to do it now however.
 
we really should sound out the neighboring kingdoms and other polities. Should help us get a clearer picture of outside threats and possible opportunities.

As for the Burgundians, this sounds like a excellent time to get another vassal and buffer state between us and other barbarians. Probably best not to do it now however.
Agreed to both of these.

It's kinda funny. We've approached starting a schism in the church, when historically a schism did in fact start between the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople around this time. That schism was over the issue of Miaphysitism which was a major divide in the various Christian churches at this point in time.
 
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I feel sending troops to Britain is too much of an overextension, the Empire struggled to justify the resources to hold it when it was much stronger.
 
Ah I misread it then, thought it was Britons.
The Romano-Briton refugees starting from this period to the 500s-600s emigrated to Armorica and became the modern-day Bretons whilst intermixing with the local populace as well.

Edit: I would also like to go ahead and state that I am simplifying a lot, plus that theory has been challenged in the past with competing theories. I am just giving a summary for what's relevant to this situation.
 
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