Girl's Frontline: Wicked Animandum

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Lurkman said:
Hmm, it appears some of you aren't entirely satisfied with the options presented. While I wanted this to be more of a black/white dividing choice, I see there's more options people would've liked to pick from, be it taking the blame only partially, defending Ots-12 or even accusing the Beta team. While I personally wouldn't suggest these, I will allow write-ins. Gimmie a sec to edit the post y'all...
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Not quite sure what you're looking for with Black/White. It seems like an option to defend her from the blame or not, in the senses of how that applies to others viewing her, possibly viewing us (especially if we step in), and who we are.

In that case we are stepping in for her, but I am... particular about trying to assign blame where it is actually due. There's a difference between guilt and responsibility. All three of us share responsibility for how this fell through, but guilt? That seems to be more on Beta team than us as it has been presented.

JS05 had a shot and sat on it for some reason despite that being the signal for the operation to begin. If she didn't fire because her team wasn't in position, that's also not Ots' fault. Ots hesitated and made a call at our urging when it seemed like Beta team wasn't there. If they were out of position then we still made the right the call anyway, because they were out of position and we would have gotten lit up and found anyway.

If JS05 really was showboating though, then that's just stupidity and I don't have any patience for that in someone who's supposed to be a commander.

People make bad calls, mistakes happen, fine. Showboating is none of those.

Well, its a deliberate and on purpose bad call. Which is sabotage by another name, just not necessarily malicious.
 
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Hell I can see Veresk getting angry at her, it's not like she and AA-12 had a building explode right in front of them because she didn't take the shot
 
[X] "Present for ya!"
[X] "SPP-1 and Ots-12 will come soon, just hold out until then!"
[X] "Shhh, you're in no position to talk back. Just hang tight and we'll fix you up."
[X] "It's my fault, I pressured her into acting." take the fall for Ots-12.
 
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? When we were about to get lit up like a lit up like a Christmas tree? How often do you do that? Because I think the answer to your question of whether we trust you is no. Ots-12 wasn't just waiting for you, she was hesitating. So either you knew she would hesitate, were counting on it, which why is she commanding at all then? Or she didn't know if she could trust you to be there. I know which I'm betting on right now."

I can't think of an analogy (anyone?) and I don't think Veresk is in the mood to realize they might have been out of position, which wouldn't matter anyway and just turns into a different kind of chewing out for trying to blame Ots for acting in that situation.
 
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[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? For HOURS! Until they could have taken all initiative from us and get us lit up like a Christmas tree? Tiss wasn't acting out on her own, she had a valid reason to act the way she did, and I agree with it. Belief in others does not make you bulletproof, or safe from ringleader traps." -If JS05 continues to argue, point out that she had more than enough time to send a runner to inform Tiss of a change in plans, plans she herself did not keep to by taking too long to start the battle, and that Tiss's Alpha team would have been instantly attacked if SF cough wind of them and wasn't surprised and had the mortar team disabled, making it impossible to retreat, since thee was no status update on Beta team.


@ShadowAngelBeta has convinced me.

Edit: Adding my other votes.

[x] "Have a 'shocking' present!"

[x] "SPP-1 and Ots-12 will come soon, just hold out until then!"

[x] "Damn, that snake is learning fast…"

[x] "Where's the fun in life without some excitement?"

Edit 2: changed to less accusing form of the vote.

Edit 3: changed the vote again.
 
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Sir Bidoof said:
@ShadowAngelBeta has convinced me.
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Make sure to include the rest of the vote if you want it to count. It only takes your latest vote into account.

And if anyone has a better way to say what I'm trying to, feel free. Unless that would split the vote, but I'm only trying for the intent behind the vote, put the blame where it actually belongs, and sweep it away if no one is actually to blame.

Through the lens of Veresk anyway. Jumping to the defense of someone that didn't screw up, or at least not for what she's being accused of, seems like her to me. Though slinging more around may not be best, I... kind of figure she'd throw shit out to make chaos which she'd usually use to duck out. Can't here, but reflex.

Again, guilt/blame is not the same thing as being responsible for something.
 
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[X] "Present for ya!"
[X] "SPP-1 and Ots-12 will come soon, just hold out until then!"
[X] "Yeah… cough… that could've gone worse…"
[X] "Fuck if I know. Sure makes things interesting though, doesn't it?"
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? When we were about to get lit up like a lit up like a Christmas tree? How often do you do that? Because I think the answer to your question of whether we trust you is no. Ots-12 wasn't just waiting for you, she was hesitating. So either you knew she would hesitate, were counting on it, which why is she commanding at all then? Or she didn't know if she could trust you to be there. I know which I'm betting on right now."

Yeah I'm with the mob, I feel some righteous anger welling within
 
Another point I need to make about my vote, calling out Ots' hesitation isn't really a nice thing to do to her? Its a major point that needs to be addressed, but using it to sling something around isn't nice. Might be good, isn't nice.

And if either of those reasons are wrong for why she hesitated, though I'm not sure what it would be then, then we could also get our argument undercut.

That isn't a bad thing either. Everyone walking away with their arguments undercut isn't a bad thing, might be a good thing even.
 
[X] "Present for ya!"
[X] "SPP-1 and Ots-12 will come soon, just hold out until then!"
[X] "Yeah… cough… that could've gone worse…"
[X] "There's a lolipop in it for you after this."
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? For HOURS! When we were about to get lit up like a lit up Christmas tree?" Tap foot and glare while waiting for an explanation.
 
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[X] "Present for ya!"
[X] "SPP-1 and Ots-12 will come soon, just hold out until then!"
[X] "Yeah… cough… that could've gone worse…"
[X] "Fuck if I know. Sure makes things interesting though, doesn't it?"
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? When we were about to get lit up like a lit up like a Christmas tree? How often do you do that? Because I think the answer to your question of whether we trust you is no. Ots-12 wasn't just waiting for you, she was hesitating. So either you knew she would hesitate, were counting on it, which why is she commanding at all then? Or she didn't know if she could trust you to be there. I know which I'm betting on right now."
 
[X] Write-in: "Lightning in the hole!"
[X] "If you don't help us advance, we'll get shot to bits and you'll be alone forever!"
[X] "Damn, that snake is learning fast…"
[X] "Fuck if I know. Sure makes things interesting though, doesn't it?"
Old vote [*] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? For HOURS! When we were about to get lit up like a lit up like a Christmas tree?" Tap foot and glare while waiting for an explanation. (Leave out the stuff about trust. That's just going a bit too far and is unnecessary. We aren't trying to cut all ties and burn all bridges here.)
Updated Vote:
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? For HOURS! Until they could have taken all initiative from us and get us lit up like a Christmas tree? Tiss wasn't acting out on her own, she had a valid reason to act the way she did, and I agree with it. Belief in others does not make you bulletproof, or safe from ringleader traps." -If JS05 continues to argue, point out that she had more than enough time to send a runner to inform Tiss of a change in plans, plans she herself did not keep to by taking too long to start the battle, and that Tiss's Alpha team would have been instantly attacked if SF cough wind of them and wasn't surprised and had the mortar team disabled, making it impossible to retreat, since thee was no status update on Beta team.
 
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[X] "Present for ya!"
[X] "SPP-1 and Ots-12 will come soon, just hold out until then!"
[X] "Yeah… cough… that could've gone worse…"
[X] "Fuck if I know. Sure makes things interesting though, doesn't it?"
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? When we were about to get lit up like a lit up like a Christmas tree? How often do you do that? Because I think the answer to your question of whether we trust you is no. Ots-12 wasn't just waiting for you, she was hesitating. So either you knew she would hesitate, were counting on it, which why is she commanding at all then? Or she didn't know if she could trust you to be there. I know which I'm betting on right now."
 
[X] "Stun grenade!"
[X] "If you don't help us advance, we'll get shot to bits and you'll be alone forever!"
[X] "Damn, that snake is learning fast…"
[X] Write-in: People just can't contain their emotions when I'm near them, you dummy~~ (Pat her head)
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? For HOURS! Until they could have taken all initiative from us and get us lit up like a Christmas tree? Tiss wasn't acting out on her own, she had a valid reason to act the way she did, and I agree with it. Belief in others does not make you bulletproof, or safe from ringleader traps." -If JS05 continues to argue, point out that she had more than enough time to send a runner to inform Tiss of a change in plans, plans she herself did not keep to by taking too long to start the battle, and that Tiss's Alpha team would have been instantly attacked if SF cough wind of them and wasn't surprised and had the mortar team disabled, making it impossible to retreat, since thee was no status update on Beta team.

Lurkman said:
You check your internal clock… according to the briefing's calculations, Beta team should've been in position by now. Not only that, the assault should've started already too.
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One of the missions parameters called for a timed execution of the mission. If anything JS05 dawdled too long gawking through her scope and then failed to use radio or send a runner to intercept AA-12 from going in the shed after the battle was concluded. And now shes taking it out on Ots-12 for taking actions aimed at securing her teams safe retreat, when the other team did not show up... yeah... @ShadowAngelBeta summed up my thoughts well enough.
 
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[X] "Present for ya!"
[X] "SPP-1 and Ots-12 will come soon, just hold out until then!"
[X] "Yeah… cough… that could've gone worse…"
[X] "Fuck if I know. Sure makes things interesting though, doesn't it?"
[X] "Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? For HOURS! When we were about to get lit up like a lit up like a Christmas tree?" Tap foot and glare while waiting for an explanation.
 
kay...
So after sitting on it for a few hours I had a bit of an epiphany in relation to the situation with JS05, though it something Lurkman would have to confirm as it touches on in setting lore.
Specifically a dolls tactical module (or lack thereof), how advanced it is and how much planning ahead and extra sub scenarios it allows for common T-Dolls to carry out.
Because it might be a case of everyone just being "dumb" due to their programming, and V just being too smart for her own good due to our meddling.

Since T-Dolls have a rather limited tactical and strategic ability, to a point they struggle forming a defensive perimeter around a building (cinnamon roll prison defense) without receiving outside orders- like from a commander (Kalin as field commander) or Doll with a tactical module (M4A1 ,RO)- or chose to go into sleep mode in the field simply due to losing contact with their command structure (tutorial, Chapter 0).
So despite being a 5* elite Doll, JS05 is still a mostly regular ,militarized ,civilian model that however still lacks a tactical module. And as far as she could have been concerned, there were no possible plan changes that could be carried out by Tiss based on in field conditions, or her own judgement in relation to her squads safety, even if the plan was off schedule.
Because as far as her programming told her, Tiss should have been there waiting till the end of time.

While we don't know this for certain, I am assuming that V would, based on her own data, in universe knowledge, and having access to AA-12 digimind (for a time).
It might be relevant to the last vote choice, so if you feel this is the case @Lurkman could you clarify it?

It would make me feel bad to have V let lose on JS05 if the rifle was simply incapable of acting in any other way due to her programming deficiencies.
 
kaazmiz said:
It would make me feel bad to have V let lose on JS05 if the rifle was simply incapable of acting in any other way due to her programming deficiencies.
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That's a good point. I feel its still unfair in that case to let her chew out tiss for her own programming deficiencies, both the hesitating and attacking at our urge really.

There's also a good argument for why we should have field command at any given time as well in there, the only thing being a lack of trust, but I feel like we're building up goodwill pretty fast just by being us as well. In that sense I would almost want to keep the vote as is in light of that. While it might be harping on them for something outside of their control, its also stepping in to (perhaps a bit viciously) defend one of them from the same thing.

If we can build up the goodwill, or bad will for the right reasons, then we might be able to get a handle on the situation in area 6 even sooner. I'd still want to see about getting control of the entire base, but I've always just wanted that for contingency's sake. I don't want control of the base so much as I don't want them to be used against us... or to protect them from themselves in the case of bad/stupid orders from above.
 
ShadowAngelBeta said:
That's a good point. I feel its still unfair in that case to let her chew out tiss for her own programming deficiencies, both the hesitating and attacking at our urge really.
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That's under the condition she can see it that way, and doesn't just assume that something is wrong with Tiss.
For now the vote does not include information about V's urging Tiss to act, and if that comes to light, depending on Lurkaman's decision regarding tactical modules (and I guess V's module, or programming? are we -players- her advanced learning tactical algorithm ,independent of a tactical module or common tactical software?), might be reason to change the vote.
Since if V has better software or hardware, then her decision to nudge Tiss into acting should be an acceptable excuse by other Dolls, and cease an argument in its track.

Though, it will also raise the issue of V not reporting being capable of independent tactical actions (regardless of her cross sector foray with AA-12), or in possession of more advanced software/hardware that could have resulted in their orders or mission parameters being different.
 
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kaazmiz said:
kay...
So after sitting on it for a few hours I had a bit of an epiphany in relation to the situation with JS05, though it something Lurkman would have to confirm as it touches on in setting lore.
Specifically a dolls tactical module (or lack thereof), how advanced it is and how much planning ahead and extra sub scenarios it allows for common T-Dolls to carry out.
Because it might be a case of everyone just being "dumb" due to their programming, and V just being too smart for her own good due to our meddling.

Since T-Dolls have a rather limited tactical and strategic ability, to a point they struggle forming a defensive perimeter around a building (cinnamon roll prison defense) without receiving outside orders- like from a commander (Kalin as field commander) or Doll with a tactical module (M4A1 ,RO)- or chose to go into sleep mode in the field simply due to losing contact with their command structure (tutorial, Chapter 0).
So despite being a 5* elite Doll, JS05 is still a mostly regular ,militarized ,civilian model that however still lacks a tactical module. And as far as she could have been concerned, there were no possible plan changes that could be carried out by Tiss based on in field conditions, or her own judgement in relation to her squads safety, even if the plan was off schedule.
Because as far as her programming told her, Tiss should have been there waiting till the end of time.

While we don't know this for certain, I am assuming that V would, based on her own data, in universe knowledge, and having access to AA-12 digimind (for a time).
It might be relevant to the last vote choice, so if you feel this is the case @Lurkman could you clarify it?

It would make me feel bad to have V let lose on JS05 if the rifle was simply incapable of acting in any other way due to her programming deficiencies.
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That is a lot of words... do y'all have to think so deep? I know this is meant to be thought provoking, but c'mon, my poor brain is having trouble keeping up >.>

Alrighty. So... you've got valid points, and I'd be lying if I said these things have passed through my mind already. The main matter being, is V smarter than all these dolls, and does that mean she shouldn't be nagging them for simply being inferior due to how they were constructed? One thing I can say for certain is that they're more limited than Veresk. I wouldn't say dolls are stupid just because they are unable or ineffective at taking command. Rather, I believe that is simply not something every doll can do well. A soldier is meant to do as he's told, not to tell others what to do, that's the job of a commander. Some dolls really don't know how to take command, and those that do know won't because they're not allowed to, as a human must be overseeing them. Their inability of independent command is in many cases not because of lack of intelligence but freedom. V has none of these restrictions, which doesn't make her smarter, just free.

Now, does this lack of independence have a role in the current dilemma? Personally, I don't think so. In fact, it might've been the one thing that kept the mission from going completely haywire, as JS05, with the squad command role she's be given, would not be allowed to take an action that would endanger the mission to the point of critical failure. Though, overconfidence might blur the line marking how much one can get away with. Maybe her plan would've worked, which would mean V and AA-12 wouldn't get blown up, or it might not, which would result in positions being revealed and an overall more difficult operation with more casualties. V must make up her own mind about this, judge using the information at hand.

So, to ease your worries, you won't be nagging at anyone for something that was out of their control. But do be sure where you point your finger before you do so.

Phew... I feel like I wrote a bunch of nonsense... this is why I don't like thinking too hard about things. Most of the stuff in my stories is about things just "clicking" together, not having lengthy thought out explanations, makes me feel like I never use the right words. For the most part I just see Dolls as people with various degrees of intelligence, discipline and freedom. I haven't considered the whole tactical module thing, it's all mostly a matter of authorization and qualification. Unlike humans, dolls are managed very strictly. I dunno what else to add... hope this clears some things up.
 
Lurkman said:
That is a lot of words... do y'all have to think so deep? I know this is meant to be thought provoking, but c'mon, my poor brain is having trouble keeping up >.>
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When a minibike trudges through the zombie wastes of 7d2d you get excessive amounts of free time to think about useless things :lol:
I simply considered it a possibility that could have been expected/alluded/accident.

Though with this, it feels a bit like the vote should be changed a bit.

Proposal, color change:
"Wait. Wait, wait, wait. Are you telling me you had the shot that was our signal to start and you sat on it? To showboat!? For HOURS! Until they could have taken all initiative from us and get us lit up like a Christmas tree? Tiss wasn't acting out on her own, she had a valid reason to act the way she did, and I agree with it. Belief in others does not make you bulletproof, or safe from ringleader traps." -If JS05 continues to argue, point out that she had more than enough time to send a runner to inform Tiss of a change in plans, plans she herself did not keep to by taking too long to start the battle, and that Tiss's Alpha team would have been instantly attacked if SF cough wind of them and wasn't surprised and had the mortar team disabled, making it impossible to retreat, since thee was no status update on Beta team.
 
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kaazmiz said:
Though with this, it feels a bit like the vote should be changed a bit.

Proposal, color change:
...
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Nice. Exactly what I was going for by saying "Cut out the stuff about trust". This says what I was hoping would be implied by just leaving a simple accusation hanging with 'Tap foot and glare'. I'm updating/editing my vote.
But I'm taking out the new line before the explanation of what to do of JS05 keeps arguing so that that course of action is part of the vote. Like this:
...safe from ringleader traps." -If JS05 continues to argue...
 
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ShadowAngelBeta said:
*confused SAB noises* Hours? They were hours late? I thought it was only a little bit?
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Lurkman said:
And you wait…

The air is chilly, the forest quiet, wind rustling leaves and branches against each other. Were one to close their eyes, they'd not be able to even guess the not-so-peaceful armaments capable of utter obliteration just a little further ahead. But your eyes are open, prepared...

And you wait…

You check your internal clock… according to the briefing's calculations, Beta team should've been in position by now. Not only that, the assault should've started already too. You wonder if perhaps they encountered a patrol… but as you ponder, more and more time passes. The operation stretches.

And you wait…

Looking at the faces of your teammates, it appears they're having the same thoughts. You're not just worrying over small things like Benelli, everyone's feeling that something's off… but nobody's saying anything.

And you wait… until…

"Sea Horse, Lilac Prowler." spoke Ots-12, quietly "Follow me, we're going to get a closer look."
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We waited long enough to have Ots-12 already jumping the gun slightly by having us risk trying to sneak closer without their planned distraction. Long enough to drag on to the point that the operation was going quite late and causing worry for everyone in Alpha Team. They were very late, not just a little. Though I suppose it doesn't specifically say 'hours'. Thanks for making me check that. It's just a minor point though. Not really worth changing the vote. The spirit of what Varesk is saying is true to what happened I think.
 
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