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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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random_npc said:
I feel you are somewhat overstating things by saying she was as spent as we were after grounding out a small gods worth of divine energy.

you're also assuming that going maximum harsh would make for a better lesson, rather than simply embitter her and risk her digging in her heels.
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I didn't say that she was as spent as we were, only that she was tired. However, I am indeed assuming that a light touch wouldn't be effective, considering that we've been exercising a light touch the entire campaign, and indeed isn't appropriate considering the gravity. What makes you assume that going light would have better results than being shell-shocked by her idol?
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
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random_npc said:
they where still pouring out when things fell into a route. So while that means its unlikely to be totally empty, it does mean the main body of the greenskin horde was not able to make it back to the citadel. I'm assuming the option involves scouting it out at least a bit first, but I'm willing to wagere there is somewhere between a tenth and a third of the green skins still in that citadel.
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The orks poured out like a green flood from start to finish with no stopping. Tens of thousands probably died, but for all we know there's as many again still stuck in there. Or more. Putting a number, and especially a number like 'a tenth', to the unscouted citadel is wildly optimistic.
 
The Panoramia problem is pretty interesting. On one hand their is a need to maintain order and discipline in combat forces. On the other hand we are only in command of 5 people. The need to maintain absolute dominance is not really needed for such a small group. We need to let her know that we saw what happened and are disappointed but I don't think we need to make a huge deal out of it. We are not her friend but we also understand the need to prove oneself. Perhaps we can talk to her and help her find ways to prove her self. Anything stricter seems unnecessary. If it becomes a habit of disobeying orders then much harsher measures will be needed. For now though a simple talk should be enough to put everything to status quo.
 
I'm leaning towards harsh, but a bit dissuaded by the fact that it seems more about how she disobeyed us than how she risked brain-splosion, which I think is the bigger issue here.
 
I think it's overstating our authority to chew Panoramia out as a superior officer. That's not the relationship we've established throughout the expedition with the journeymen. We've presented ourselves as more of a mentor figure I guess, a first among equals. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of ground to claim she was insubordinate here, and I struggle to imagine Mathilde getting worked up over it. I mean, if she thinks it'd be best for Panoramia then sure, she'd be able to distance herself and give a harsher lecture, but I think Matty would've done the same thing in her place and she knows that.

And especially for a young, adventurous wizard, sitting back and doing nothing while a huge fight is taking place is painful. She needs to be told what she did is wrong, but I don't think she'd respond well to a verbal beatdown. So let's not. This isn't about establishing our authority, it's about teaching her to not be an idiot.

As for the other choices, I think it'd be uncomfortably dishonest to not mention 'hey, here's why all those greenskins charged out into your guns in one gigantic mass," even though we definitely shouldn't mention Ranald. I mean, yeah, the Dwarfs will probably appreciate it if we explain that we gave Mork a bloody nose and won't ask too many questions. They'll probably figure something crazy happened with the ritual, but nowhere near the level of what actually went down.

Finally, I think other people have made good arguments for taking the Citadel. It's currently weakened, it's a very strong position, and we need to establish Belegar in K8P with positions that can hold for decades while winning the war of attrition. That's the only way to have a sustainable victory here.

[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
Guile said:
The orks poured out like a green flood from start to finish with no stopping. Tens of thousands probably died, but for all we know there's as many again still stuck in there. Or more. Putting a number, and especially a number like 'a tenth', to the unscouted citadel is wildly optimistic.
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there is a reason I put such a big range to that guess. But I'm going to assume any attack would be preceded by scouting it out. If i'm wrong and there is still a lot in there, we can just not attack.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
natruska said:
I think it's overstating our authority to chew Panoramia out as a superior officer. That's not the relationship we've established throughout the expedition with the journeymen. We've presented ourselves as more of a mentor figure I guess, a first among equals. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of ground to claim she was insubordinate here, and I struggle to imagine Mathilde getting worked up over it. I mean, if she thinks it'd be best for Panoramia then sure, she'd be able to distance herself and give a harsher lecture, but I think Matty would've done the same thing in her place and she knows that.

And especially for a young, adventurous wizard, sitting back and doing nothing while a huge fight is taking place is painful. She needs to be told what she did is wrong, but I don't think she'd respond well to a verbal beatdown. So let's not. This isn't about establishing our authority, it's about teaching her to not be an idiot.
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That's a well-reasoned point, I admit.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
-[X] With an aside on the unpredictable reception of unsanctioned victories, and the potential consequences of unsanctioned failures.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.


It worked out for her this time, but while there is a time and a place for rewriting one's instructions, some people are more understanding of this sort of thing than others; and while flouting orders and succeeding can be risky, flouting orders and failing is seldom appreciated.

I like the flavour of slipping a note into her belongings, but I don't think 'either don't do it or hide the evidence better' is the right lesson to pass on.
 
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[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
-[X] With an aside on the unpredictable reception of unsanctioned victories, and the potential consequences of unsanctioned failures.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
One challenge I can see with taking the Citadel is the apparently endless reinforcements that can stream in from Goblintown in the Caldera, at least until those approaches are sealed.

Commando operations required, perhaps...?
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.

BoneyM said:
Skaroki and a score of Longbeards are inspecting the door's guards in a great deal of confusion as one tries to pry his axe from the chest of an unmoving figure that remains stubbornly upright, even as blood pours from its mouth. With a gesture you release the spell on it, and the rigor mortis of a simulated death is replaced by the Black Orc collapsing as his actual one approaches. At your instruction a deeply sceptical Longbeard delivers a similarly fatal blow to the other guard so you can release its ensorcellment as well, and they drag the bodies away to stand in their place.
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Thats hilarious
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
torac said:
Edit: SV partially ate my post. I think I have restored it, tell me if it's incoherent.

Since I'm gearing up to a big rant anyway, here's some more general potentialities I'm wary about:

1) Escalation Game
2) A Legend Around Every Corner
3) Meta-Gaming
4) Gamification / Dehumanisation

All of these are expected in quests to some degree. All of these can ruin a story. All of these are found in this thread, both in the story and in the mentalities around it.

1) Anything that has happened once, no matter how unlikely, becomes the new norm. The moment Mathilde killed the first Warboss, even if it took a natural 100, players took it for granted that she would go out to kill the other bosses. They were proven right. Any new accomplishment has to be greater. Mathilde grows in power more and more, which is part of the game.
2) The witchhunter she knew just happened to be the one current guardian of The Olde Forbidden Loot™. The boss she killed just happened to be the big warboss. The priest she saw just happened to be in the process in possibly the biggest greenskin ritual of the decade during these days. Of course, the story requires plot hooks, but I'm wary that Mathilde will just keep stumbling upon potential historical events, places, and objects. Somewhat ameliorated by being Ranald's chosen.
3) Already mentioned in my other post. "Piety is her best trait", "Let's go to these places because they have this lore." "We should go to X place she does not know immediately." It's a minority, but the arguments happen constantly. Of course, we are outside the narrative and should not ignore our knowledge. However, I'd love to see a closer link to why Mathilde would want to go there.
4) Related, many arguments seem to be around making the numbers go up. The issue here is that this treats narrative elements as pure numbers. Help the dwarves for points. Go there for an extra killy sword. There is nothing in Stirland for her, because the characters don't matter. It seems to reduce Mathilde to a greenskin-killing machine with flavor text, while I would rather she be a character with "being killy" as a small part of her flavor text.


-----

Mind you, all are expected elements. I'd just caution for people not to let things get out of hand. I want the story to be narratively satisfying, not yet another Xianxia escalation game into godhood while every mortal connection is slowly severed and becomes purely transactional…


Personally, I don't care how powerful Mathilde becomes. I loved the "street-level" intrigue, but I can also see her as the best Magister in the Empire. However, I absolutely don't care about seeking out the best ways to gain power. I don't see her as such a powerhungry person, and I would be less invested if she was.

Indeed.


As I understand it, DragonParadox voted against personal identification because of systemic flaws. That does imply that she is aware of those flaws and shares DP's reactions to them. It is basically the same as her suddenly becoming aware of those flaws.

Mind you, I agree that she should already be aware of many of those flaws. It's just that her opinion has already been shown and suddenly changing it would be out of character. She may still become a champion for wizard rights and crusade against bigotry… but those decisions of include her overall enjoyment of college life, veneration of Magnus, and proud self-identification as a Magister of the Grey College.
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You managed to point out everything that bothered me about this otherwise excellent quest, and in a far better way than I could.

Thank you.
 
Pyrelight said:
And especially for a young, adventurous wizard, sitting back and doing nothing while a huge fight is taking place is painful. She needs to be told what she did is wrong, but I don't think she'd respond well to a verbal beatdown. So let's not. This isn't about establishing our authority, it's about teaching her to not be an idiot.
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Also important context. She didn't charge out into the field against orders seeking glory. We saw ZERO spells from her until the orcs threatened to overrun the halflings.
The halflings Panoramia had spent the past few months befriending?
She was never going to obey the orders to stand back no matter WHAT we tell her.
You see orcs about to stomp your friends dead, and you can with one spell, avert mass casualties, you do it.

What works is reminding of the risk that she explodes into daemons in the midst of the very people she's trying to protect.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss and the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol.
[X] The Citadel should be destroyed before we can consider our position secure.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.

I'm highly amused by how Kragg had to warm up there for a bit :V

But then once he got going... whew daddy.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.

Report what we know with certainty, and keep the rest to ourselves.
 
Mmm, with Karak Azul, holder the best traditional and rune-crafted equipment among the Dwarfholds of the Karaz Ankor, coming...I wonder if Thorek Ironbrow will be coming too, if only because Azul learns how Kragg the Grim is here too.

I wonder how widespread the knowledge of his presence is among the Karaz Ankor?
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
[X] The death of the Warboss, the shattering of an Almost-Rogue Idol, and the weakening of Mork.
[X] You'd have done the same once. Tell her you understand, but treat her to a lecture on the risks and dangers of miscasts.
[X] The residents are weakened, taking the Citadel is now a possibility.
 
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