- Location
- Germany
[X] The Chiselwards below.
Our job is done when the Karak is taken.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Inserted tally
I really think people should consider the relative value of the Highways and the Chiselwards.
There's a fair chance that Mathilde will achieve nothing at all if she goes to the Highways, as it's unlikely that the goblins and skaven in the other peaks have substantial rapid reaction forces ready to deploy at a moment's notice.
Even if they do have forces they can deploy quickly, it's likely that it will take hours for them to march through the Highways and reach the dwarves' positions. We'd probably do more to help strengthen the defences by clearing the Chiselwards and freeing up the forces that would otherwise be stuck dealing with them. If the trolls or skaven were to bring monsters or monstrous infantry through the Highways, we'd really want the Slayers there rather than stuck in the Chiselways, where they currently are.
Agreed, but for today it's probably done when the Karag is taken.
For the medium term, the Expedition's goals are described below;
I would support hanging around until most of the Karak is taken. Being Court Wizard to Belegar seems like a lot of fun. We'd need to make periodic trips back to the College for continuing professional education, and an initial trip to Stirland to collect Mathilde's gear, but I like Belegar and the other dwarves.
If we get enough favours, using them to set up College Chapterhouses in Karak Eight peaks where journeymen and Magisters could help the dwarves secure their holdings in return for education in dwarven magical theory would be very interesting, and could be a significant help for both the Empire and the dwarves.
I also wonder if Kragg could create location based runes that would create a permanent Earthing Rod effect in a workshop, cancelling our miscasts within, but this might have been confirmed as impossible.
There's a fair chance that Mathilde will achieve nothing at all if she goes to the Highways, as it's unlikely that the goblins and skaven in the other peaks have substantial rapid reaction forces ready to deploy at a moment's notice.
Even if they do have forces they can deploy quickly, it's likely that it will take hours for them to march through the Highways and reach the dwarves' positions. We'd probably do more to help strengthen the defences by clearing the Chiselwards and freeing up the forces that would otherwise be stuck dealing with them. If the trolls or skaven were to bring monsters or monstrous infantry through the Highways, we'd really want the Slayers there rather than stuck in the Chiselways, where they currently are.
Agreed, but for today it's probably done when the Karag is taken.
For the medium term, the Expedition's goals are described below;
I would support hanging around until most of the Karak is taken. Being Court Wizard to Belegar seems like a lot of fun. We'd need to make periodic trips back to the College for continuing professional education, and an initial trip to Stirland to collect Mathilde's gear, but I like Belegar and the other dwarves.
If we get enough favours, using them to set up College Chapterhouses in Karak Eight peaks where journeymen and Magisters could help the dwarves secure their holdings in return for education in dwarven magical theory would be very interesting, and could be a significant help for both the Empire and the dwarves.
I also wonder if Kragg could create location based runes that would create a permanent Earthing Rod effect in a workshop, cancelling our miscasts within, but this might have been confirmed as impossible.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Kragg and his Unsealing.
The MMM paper is a solid text for its readers, it was just a miserable amount of work for Mathilde to make it that way. On the other hand, that's technical work, Arsanil's memoirs went fine so maybe narrative flows more easily. On the gripping hand, maybe Arsanil is a good enough storyteller that his structure and pacing carried over even in translation.
The 16 part armour enchantment that can be sewn into clothes and the Dread Aspect variant with killer tentacles are both worth write ups for the college if she can bring herself to do them.
The 16 part armour enchantment that can be sewn into clothes and the Dread Aspect variant with killer tentacles are both worth write ups for the college if she can bring herself to do them.
Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and put the work in. However, the untiring variant of Aethyric Armour may be a better candidate, as it's an easier base spell and isn't dependent on a particular arcane mark that most people won't have.
As spellcasting is about getting in the right state of mind as well as theoretical formula, I wonder if she can learn to apply the latter to the former.
- Location
- Russia
[X] The Chiselwards below.
- Location
- Austria
Hmmm.
Actually, yeah, I would love Academy Chapterhouse: Dwarven Attache quest.
I imagine that even without their plentiful trade secrets there's stuff they can teach to mages.
Although a lot of it is probably of more interest to Chamonbenders than us, so there's that....
Kornet
Quite possibly a sloth abomination
- Location
- Mother Russia
That was exactly the problem for her, as far as I remember. She had trouble formally describing complex stereometry of the matrix when her normal explanation defaulted to "kinda like this" and "looks about right".
- Location
- Internet, The
Could be that her foible for romance novels lends itself more to writing about the heroic adventures of a noble elf rather than methodological dissertations.
One thing she should write is a report on anything important for the Empire/College to handed to the appropriate (Grey Wizard) authority later on. Would mostly consist of a status report on the Skaven threat (and evolving countermeasures), anything substantial of the Gold Wizards attempts to investigate Warpstone Technology (especially stuff he wouldn't admit) and possibly Mathilde's take on Belegar and how he will likely affect the larger political and cultural landscape (I.e. tentative approval of wizardkind, being innovative and open to new things, intercultural exchange etc).
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I have been thinking about potential favours and not reading the ever controversial thingy a bit:
Favours first:
1) While a bit of a commemorative gift-giving is appropriate, I fear that immediately trying to "cash in" most of the favours will make us (and those we represent) seem more like greedy quasi-mercenaries rather than long-term allies who help each other. Not an issue with a hero doing one awesome thing and then being rewarded. However, Mathilde is not just here as herself, but also as a representative of two political entities, the Empire and the Colleges. Not saying we should be stingy with the favours, but I suggest keeping some in case we need the later.
2) While Mathilde The Adventurer could always use some new fancy equipment, what would be an appropriate commemorative gift for the Colleges? I think their main issue is how comparatively new and unreliable human magics are, with far too many people killing themselves or their allies. Given Mathilde's Belt, I'm fairly sure Kragg agrees. Ideas:
- Earthing Rod: The dwarves have never had need of this, so I'm curious what their take on the concept would be. They already have Runes to Ward against enemy magics (and burn the spells from their minds), so I'm sure something like this could be done. Basically, instead of detecting enemy spells, they might be triggered by something directly directing (part of) the Winds at the object. Another possibility would be basing it on the Anti-Dhar effect. I'm not sure if there is a reason this couldn't work to some degree on the other Winds. Basically, burn the magics around the caster (and grant fire resistance).
- General insights in how dwarves believe magic works. There has already been some discussion about this, mostly regarding Mathilde being taught. In any case, the dwarves have worked with magic for longer than the colleges have existed, so they might have some applicable insights in making it blow up less.
The dreaded book:
If Mathilde wanted to do the proper thing and submit it to the authorities, she would have to answer several questions: Why did she not do so immediately? How can she convince the Grey College not to kill her for fear of her having read it? Is the Empire even a safe place for it? (She does have personal experience of the Grey College being infiltrated enough to blackmail Magisters into compliance and the one province she worked in had been ripe with deep corruption just before. With how dangerous the book is, can she even trust the Empire to look keep it secret and safe long-term? Also, wouldn't this be a severe violation of the trust Van Hel showed when he made her the keeper? His family kept the book secret for centuries, even from the Empire. There must have been reasons for this!
I've thought of one possible solution that I find quite neat: What if she specifically kept it secret out of fear of the book not being protected well enough? Directly after his death, Mathilde went to the College. This could be framed as: a) Contemplating how to best keep it safe, especially considering the observed fallibility of the College b) Not wanting to bring it to the authorities immediately out of fear of someone connecting the dots if someone notices she is involved in retrieving "something big" shortly after Van Hel's death. c) Wanting to stay near the authority she trusts most anyway, so that she can give it to them immediately once she deems it safe.
In any case, that was when the optimal course of action struck her: Dwarves are the best at keeping stuff safe long term, even powerful artifacts. Just as importantly, unlike humans, they would not be tempted by the book in the least, making them the best suited for caring for it. Now she just needed to ingratiate herself to them enough for them to agree… which is where Belegar's campaign comes in. This would require spending a lot of favour on the books. Options include, but are not limited to: Constructing a better / additional box to house it; Runic Metal Book-bindings that violently react to Dhar; Adding the book to their Vaults and only unsealing it in case the Empire is in danger; Agreeing to construct a custom vault in Empire territory.
tl;dr: Mathilde totally dedicated several years of her life to making sure the book is as safe as is possible. She was just earning enough favour to have some Dwarven Runesmiths make sure no necromancer/chaos cultist can ever take or use the book.
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Any of that sound reasonable?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[X] The Chiselwards below.
Some good points have been made about how Mathilde would be more effective in the Chiselwards than at shoring up the lower boundary.
Plus, best to be thorough in clearing out your house of vermin before you start boarding up the windows.
Some good points have been made about how Mathilde would be more effective in the Chiselwards than at shoring up the lower boundary.
Plus, best to be thorough in clearing out your house of vermin before you start boarding up the windows.
This argument is effectively insulting the Wizard Lords of the Colleges on two levels, one it's explicitly saying we did not trust them to be competent enough to protect the book better than a newly made magister and two it's insulting their intelligence by assuming they might believe that. Plus if we were that scared of the Liber Mortis Mathilde could just destroy it, the thing is not like the Books of Nagash, it's just parchment and ink.
On the Liber Mortis, as it's the discussion that won't die, it seems much better to just never mention it to anyone. They don't need to know that she has or read it or where her insights come from.
Particularly if she does get an education in dwarven magical theory that she shares with the College, she can use that to launder anything she thinks needs sharing more publicly by layering it between insights derived from the former.
Even other Magisters who have read the Empire's copy of the Liber Mortis wouldn't know that it wasn't just her reverse engineering necromancy that she's witnessed for lessons to apply to Ulgu.
You know, I suspect that the dwarves might be much better at the kind of higher end mathematics that's useful to describing magic than humans, as this is the kind of thing they might be prepared to teach more readily.
Well, there's something for several Colleges.
Amber: access to the wide variety of creatures that inhabit the more southerly World's Edge Mountains.
Amethyst: opportunity to learn about dwarven funerary customs
Celestial: the opportunity for an observatory on top of a mountain at a more southerly latitude.
Grey: a playground full of intrigue between the night goblins and skaven to hone their talents.
Light: access to dwarven stoneworkers
If we could get Kragg to work out how to make the Rune of Brotherhood apply to non-dwarves and somehow apply it to class/training rooms then that would be incredibly valuable for all the Colleges. Given the dangers of learning magic, something that accelerated how fast students acquired skills in it would be amazing.
On that note, although I would prefer we spend Favours on something grander than personal equipment for Mathilde, I would make an exception for getting her an item with a Rune of Brotherhood that worked on non-dwarves.
Particularly if she does get an education in dwarven magical theory that she shares with the College, she can use that to launder anything she thinks needs sharing more publicly by layering it between insights derived from the former.
Even other Magisters who have read the Empire's copy of the Liber Mortis wouldn't know that it wasn't just her reverse engineering necromancy that she's witnessed for lessons to apply to Ulgu.
You know, I suspect that the dwarves might be much better at the kind of higher end mathematics that's useful to describing magic than humans, as this is the kind of thing they might be prepared to teach more readily.
Well, there's something for several Colleges.
Amber: access to the wide variety of creatures that inhabit the more southerly World's Edge Mountains.
Amethyst: opportunity to learn about dwarven funerary customs
Celestial: the opportunity for an observatory on top of a mountain at a more southerly latitude.
Grey: a playground full of intrigue between the night goblins and skaven to hone their talents.
Light: access to dwarven stoneworkers
If we could get Kragg to work out how to make the Rune of Brotherhood apply to non-dwarves and somehow apply it to class/training rooms then that would be incredibly valuable for all the Colleges. Given the dangers of learning magic, something that accelerated how fast students acquired skills in it would be amazing.
On that note, although I would prefer we spend Favours on something grander than personal equipment for Mathilde, I would make an exception for getting her an item with a Rune of Brotherhood that worked on non-dwarves.
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- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
More than a sword, the idea of using our favours to ask dwarves to share their non-secret theory and perspective appeals to me
This might be beyond the scope of the quest, it might require rune-lore and therefore is on the "not happening list", but what if we were able to get some dwarves to work with some wizards to develop something that has a similar effect to the Rube Against Chaos, even to a lesser degree? Or a better grounding rod or such?
Change the world once again. Would be worth doing imo.
And also be worth a shit tonne of wizard cred too imo.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Goblins would send reinforcements because there are Dwarfs here, which means there's a fight.
- Location
- Singapore
[X] The Chiselwards below.
The arguments against prioritizing the Underway convinced me to vote for this option. The faster and cheaper in terms of Lives we can secure other areas of Karak Eight Peaks, the larger the force that can be sent to blockade and fortify the Underway from Skaven and Goblin reinforcements in the future. That being said, one wonders whether news of our successful assassination attempt has reached the nearest outpost of Clan Moulder (if news has reached the Underempire, that is), and how long it would take for the Skavens to send an army to Karak Eight Peaks.
The arguments against prioritizing the Underway convinced me to vote for this option. The faster and cheaper in terms of Lives we can secure other areas of Karak Eight Peaks, the larger the force that can be sent to blockade and fortify the Underway from Skaven and Goblin reinforcements in the future. That being said, one wonders whether news of our successful assassination attempt has reached the nearest outpost of Clan Moulder (if news has reached the Underempire, that is), and how long it would take for the Skavens to send an army to Karak Eight Peaks.
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Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] The Chiselwards below.
Goblins aren't orcs though. They're both much more cowardly and much greedier. They're much more likely to focus on enslaving the remnants of the Crooked Moon that escape through the Highways rather than going to war against a little known foe capable of storming Karag Lhune in less than a day.
They won't (yet) know it fell so easily because of intrigue and sabotage by a certain Grey Wizard. As far as they'll know the dwarves simply marched right up to the doors, kicked them in, and then massacred everyone inside.
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- Location
- Watching thread "An Extra Primarch"
[X] The Chiselwards below.
While I do like the idea of spending more time with Belegar after the campaign we really shouldn't get our hopes up on Dwarf magic. Not because we're unlikely to be able to get access to rune lore and Dwarf magic theory but because it's almost certainly not really all that useful for us.
Before Malekith instigated the massive war between the Dwarfs and the Elves (the war of the beard/war of vengeance) they were actually super best friends forever. They had a great friendship for well over a thousand years and in this time the Elves and the Dwarfs created great things together.
Since the magic lore of the College comes from the Elves and the Elves would have retained the useful insights from back then we essentially already know any relevant Dwarf magic lore. So while we can still no doubt gain further insight into magic by interacting with Dwarf Runelords it's going to be the same or worse insight we'd get from hanging around with any talented wizard.
Before Malekith instigated the massive war between the Dwarfs and the Elves (the war of the beard/war of vengeance) they were actually super best friends forever. They had a great friendship for well over a thousand years and in this time the Elves and the Dwarfs created great things together.
Since the magic lore of the College comes from the Elves and the Elves would have retained the useful insights from back then we essentially already know any relevant Dwarf magic lore. So while we can still no doubt gain further insight into magic by interacting with Dwarf Runelords it's going to be the same or worse insight we'd get from hanging around with any talented wizard.
To give a counter-example, one of the problems the elves have with repairing the Waystone network is the lack of dwarven assistance.
On top of that, dwarven knowledge and approaches to magic probably rather fell out of fashion during and after the War of the Beard.
And finally, Teclis and the other two elven archmages taught the proto-Colleges the equivalent of elven apprentice exercises plus individual battle magic they could learn by rote, as that was what was needed for the Great War against Chaos, before almost certainly rushing off to put out the next place that was in fire. I'd expect that there's huge amount of magical lore that the elves simply didn't have time or inclination to teach. While the elves may have taught the Colleges everything that the Colleges know about magical theory, I very strongly doubt they taught everything that the elves know, given that it takes centuries for the mentally super-human elves to learn. That's why the Colleges are still developing and researching magic that the elves mastered millennia ago, because the elves didn't give them anything that they didn't immediately need. Teclis made the Colleges, as both institutions and locations where only one Wind blew, and then left them to make their own way based on what he'd initially passed on. The rest they've had to discover themselves.
The elves probably have records of dwarven approaches to understanding magic in the White Tower, but those are very unlikely to be the methodologies that they taught. They'd have used dumbed down versions of elven concepts, as, well, they're elves. The fact that Imperial humanity is strongly influenced by dwarven cultural concepts is unlikely to have mattered to them. They were making weapons to fight Chaos, and then stabilising the situation so it didn't blow up afterwards.
It's the same reason why there's any point Mathilde doing magical research or spell development at all when it would all be old hat to the Loremasters of Hoeth. Just because the High Elves have master mist mages in their naval infantry who can already cast this kind of thing doesn't mean that Mathilde can just look up mist warrior spells in the Grey College's library, and instead has to work them out for herself.
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