Tohjo Military University [Pokémon]
- Thread starter wdango
- Start date
[X] "I think that's a good idea for your Nidoran since we'd otherwise have to track it in the Safari Zone, but my Oddish shouldn't be a problem."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
[X] "I think that's a good idea for your Nidoran since we'd otherwise have to track it in the Safari Zone, but my Oddish shouldn't be a problem."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
- Location
- Rapidly approaching your location.
- Pronouns
- Any/Morb
...and Kotone's heart grew three sizes that day!
[X] "He's right. Let's do that. I don't really want to risk antagonising an entire Kingdom, or stay in there any longer than I have to."
Gary's right. He's so smart. Why wouldn't he be right? He's the smartest!
Clam yourself, Koto...
- Location
- USA
[X] "He's right. Let's do that. I don't really want to risk antagonising an entire Kingdom, or stay in there any longer than I have to."
Let our friend keep face
Let our friend keep face
- Location
- Florida
[X] "He's right. Let's do that. I don't really want to risk antagonising an entire Kingdom, or stay in there any longer than I have to."
wdango
Storyteller
- Location
- Bali, Indonesia
I don't have a mechanic for IVs/Aptitudes etc so yeah assume no genetic lottery until there's a patch addressing that issue.
Skewfiend
The Corruptor of All Things
- Location
- The Darkness Behind Your Eyes
Honestly, none of the options being supported seem non-viable. I personally prefer this one, but will not be put out whichever wins.
[X] "I think that's a good idea for your Nidoran since we'd otherwise have to track it in the Safari Zone, but my Oddish shouldn't be a problem."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
[X] "I think that's a good idea for your Nidoran since we'd otherwise have to track it in the Safari Zone, but my Oddish shouldn't be a problem."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
If I were to wear my tinfoil hat again, I would suspect that to not necessarily be the case. The nature of what's fucky with the SZ may or may not mark the mon themselves.
It's worth notingthat we can automatically and instantly return the oddish once we have caught it. We can't expect it to be a trained oddish, but we can expect it to be a wild oddish in a potentially useful way.
- Location
- unknown
[X] "I think that's a good idea for your Nidoran since we'd otherwise have to track it in the Safari Zone, but my Oddish shouldn't be a problem."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
Sirrocco
Pedantic
We actually have an official answer for that now.
I'm guessing that got posted after you started writing.
Skewfiend
The Corruptor of All Things
- Location
- The Darkness Behind Your Eyes
Got it in one.
Although it is worth noting that he did not expressly disconfirm the possibility of non-genetic variations. If the Safari Zone effect did involve some sort of inherent changes to pokemon, what he said did not rule that out, and also he would not tell us until our character knew.
Along less paranoid lines of reasoning, though, SZ oddish will have much higher XP-used lifespan ratios.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Depends on if it had failed an attempt or two. On average? Maybe. Still, that only matters to see if they die of old age before we can evolve them to Gloom. Once we do that, any oddish-lifespan differences are pretty trivial. Of course, we could just pick a somewhat younger oddish to begin with. It would make them much easier to bond with, and we can apparently make up the xp deficit reasonably easily via training.
Also, recall that we have to sell our plan via interview. Getting the oddish outside is a plan that's going to be a lot easier to sell as us beign safe and judicious. Getting it inside the SZ is putting ourselves at notably increased risk for a level of gain that they might not find compelling.
I'm pretty sure that if we had a reason in-character to think that Safari Zone Pokemon were somehow more capable than outside pokemon, we'd have heard about it by now from someone. If nothing else, Gary would know, and he'd have mentioned it. At that point, that part of your argument boils down to "We should totally go catch one in the Safari Zone because hey, there could be something super-special about the pokemon who've been there." Personally, I find it unlikely. The pokemon who are there are there due to mass migrations, so there's nothing genetic. We'll be taking them back out of the zone, as well. I don't think that "spent some time in the Safari Zone as an Oddish" is going to be enough to make a permanent change like that. From an OOC standpoint... I'd assume that that would have fallen under "etc".
EternalObserver
eYe Gaze baCk
- Location
- The Void
[X] "I think that's a good idea for your Nidoran since we'd otherwise have to track it in the Safari Zone, but my Oddish shouldn't be a problem."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
-[X] "But it's not like Gary's advice isn't a good idea! What do you think, Leaf? You haven't said much so far."
- Location
- Rapidly approaching your location.
- Pronouns
- Any/Morb
Would the Oddish outside the SZ be stronger than ones inside? There is obvious danger of other Pokémon inside the SZ, but maybe that allows the strongest Pokémon to survive?
Can we consult Gary on his encyclopedic knowledge of stuffTM to know?
Can we consult Gary on his encyclopedic knowledge of stuffTM to know?
wdango
Storyteller
- Location
- Bali, Indonesia
SZ Oddish will likely have better trained STR and INT, meaning higher likelihood of succeeding an evolution attempt right off the bat.
Lab_Accident
A 2D 1D4
- Location
- Your dreams
Okay, about to propose something umpopular here: We might want to keep the Oddish as an Oddish for a little while.
Edit: Oddish is actually a really stealthy plant, and the main thing we want Gloom for, spores and stuff, it can already do. Do we care about combat strenght more than we do for stealth and utility?
Edit: Oddish is actually a really stealthy plant, and the main thing we want Gloom for, spores and stuff, it can already do. Do we care about combat strenght more than we do for stealth and utility?
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- Location
- Rapidly approaching your location.
- Pronouns
- Any/Morb
We could. Depending on the time turns take, taking into account the lifespan of unevolved Oddish.
The time we spend bonding with it could help with the gloom smell later on!
Lab_Accident
A 2D 1D4
- Location
- Your dreams
All other things being equal and all Oddish having the same potential, instead of going for strongest possible Oddish, we could go for a young but reasonably toxic Oddish, and quickly raise it to be as strong as an older Oddish.
We would then have a bigger timer to succeed in evolving it before it dies.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
So... let's look at the actual differences here, as laid out by QM:
SZ advantages:
- The SZ Oddish has had more training for its age (not as much for its age as one that was caught young and then trained up, but it's training we don't have to do)
--- This looks likely to have a greater impact for the older oddishes than the younger ones. If we decide to get a young oddish anyway, the effect will be pretty small. If we decide to get an oddish that's close to evolution, it'll probably both be a bit easier to find in SZ and have more lifespan remaining in case the evolution fails. If we decide to go with an outside oddish, we may have to settle for one that's going to require a decent chunk of training before evolution simply because we can't afford to spend the time to hunt up a near-evolution one.
- The pokemon population density is a lot higher inside the Zone, with the obvious implications for quickly finding our pokemon of choice.
Outside advantages:
- The time spent on finding an oddish outside would be time not spent in the SZ. That's a major safety factor.
- We'll be able to use the gear for the oddish-catching and then stash it before we head in, picking it up on the way out. That'll save us weight, which will save us time and fatigue. That's likely not something we can afford to do as much in the SZ - anything we leave behind there is a lot more likely to get dug into by pokemon, and we might not be able to go past exactly the same spot. It's a lot closer to just abandoning the stuff.
- It may have useful social implications as far as togetherness with Silver if both of us are hunting outside, rather than saying "I need the kind of badass that only SZ will give me, but we can let Silver take whatever he can get outside" (no, that's not actually what we're saying, but it's the sort of implication that people can hear, even if you didn't mean it). More importantly, we'll be able to look for the Oddish and the Nidoran more or less at the same time, and doing things like splitting up to cover more ground will be a lot less fraught with danger. Inside the SZ, we'll need to be within response range of each other pretty much at all times.
- the more careful and safety-oriented plan is going to be easier to sell to the review board.
/************/
Basically, the SZ capture is probably faster, especially if we care a lot about pretraining, to the point that if we want above a certain line of pretraining, the outside simply isn't practical. The outside capture is safer, easier to prep/interview for, and if we decide that we're okay with getting a not-very-trained oddish, we may be able to save time overall, by hunting it and the nidoran simultaneously, and by dumping gear before we head in.
I'm not going to pretend that my analysis is unbiased, but I do think that I've managed "fair".
/************/
My personal answer is that if we're willing to accept an Oddish that's relatively untrained, then we can make ourselves safer and also quite possibly save time by hunting outside, and then make it up later by spending some extra time in training. Given that right now we're facing an existential threat of "survive getting Leaf her Kangaskhan", I feel like just about anything we can do (within reason) to make it more likely that all three of us walk out of that safari zone alive and with pokemon in hand is worth it. We had a chance to go for a more ambitious pokemon, and the thread voted overwhelmingly to go with Oddish. That's cool, but if we're going to pick for safety, let's actually take advantage of the safety options it offers us. Upping the danger level significantly just so we can save ourselves some training cycles after the fact is false economy.
SZ advantages:
- The SZ Oddish has had more training for its age (not as much for its age as one that was caught young and then trained up, but it's training we don't have to do)
--- This looks likely to have a greater impact for the older oddishes than the younger ones. If we decide to get a young oddish anyway, the effect will be pretty small. If we decide to get an oddish that's close to evolution, it'll probably both be a bit easier to find in SZ and have more lifespan remaining in case the evolution fails. If we decide to go with an outside oddish, we may have to settle for one that's going to require a decent chunk of training before evolution simply because we can't afford to spend the time to hunt up a near-evolution one.
- The pokemon population density is a lot higher inside the Zone, with the obvious implications for quickly finding our pokemon of choice.
Outside advantages:
- The time spent on finding an oddish outside would be time not spent in the SZ. That's a major safety factor.
- We'll be able to use the gear for the oddish-catching and then stash it before we head in, picking it up on the way out. That'll save us weight, which will save us time and fatigue. That's likely not something we can afford to do as much in the SZ - anything we leave behind there is a lot more likely to get dug into by pokemon, and we might not be able to go past exactly the same spot. It's a lot closer to just abandoning the stuff.
- It may have useful social implications as far as togetherness with Silver if both of us are hunting outside, rather than saying "I need the kind of badass that only SZ will give me, but we can let Silver take whatever he can get outside" (no, that's not actually what we're saying, but it's the sort of implication that people can hear, even if you didn't mean it). More importantly, we'll be able to look for the Oddish and the Nidoran more or less at the same time, and doing things like splitting up to cover more ground will be a lot less fraught with danger. Inside the SZ, we'll need to be within response range of each other pretty much at all times.
- the more careful and safety-oriented plan is going to be easier to sell to the review board.
/************/
Basically, the SZ capture is probably faster, especially if we care a lot about pretraining, to the point that if we want above a certain line of pretraining, the outside simply isn't practical. The outside capture is safer, easier to prep/interview for, and if we decide that we're okay with getting a not-very-trained oddish, we may be able to save time overall, by hunting it and the nidoran simultaneously, and by dumping gear before we head in.
I'm not going to pretend that my analysis is unbiased, but I do think that I've managed "fair".
/************/
My personal answer is that if we're willing to accept an Oddish that's relatively untrained, then we can make ourselves safer and also quite possibly save time by hunting outside, and then make it up later by spending some extra time in training. Given that right now we're facing an existential threat of "survive getting Leaf her Kangaskhan", I feel like just about anything we can do (within reason) to make it more likely that all three of us walk out of that safari zone alive and with pokemon in hand is worth it. We had a chance to go for a more ambitious pokemon, and the thread voted overwhelmingly to go with Oddish. That's cool, but if we're going to pick for safety, let's actually take advantage of the safety options it offers us. Upping the danger level significantly just so we can save ourselves some training cycles after the fact is false economy.
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Lab_Accident
A 2D 1D4
- Location
- Your dreams
What Oddish-capturing gear? We don't have/need gear except for a liquid solution of fertilizer and sleeping drugs.
- Location
- Dealer's hand
[X] "He's right. Let's do that. I don't really want to risk antagonising an entire Kingdom, or stay in there any longer than I have to."
- Location
- Voidbetweenstars
[X] "He's right. Let's do that. I don't really want to risk antagonising an entire Kingdom, or stay in there any longer than I have to."
Skewfiend
The Corruptor of All Things
- Location
- The Darkness Behind Your Eyes
In fact, we did:
I might not have signposted that enough, but that bit was more me humourously indulging my paranoia than anything to be taken seriously. While I have some quasi-facetious suspicions about the nature of the safari zone, they don't play into my calculus, nor, frankly, should they play into anyones'.
While I don't have any reason to believe it is the case here, it is worth noting that not everything that induces change on exposure fades when the thing is no longer exposed. Pokerus infection, mutation, etc. Again, I have no reason to believe that that is the case, but my suspicions amuse me.
It's worth noting that the usual Oddish evolution timeframe is 4-5 years. That's not a quick turnaround if we get a young Oddish. Sure, we can likely shave that down with ingenuity, moonlight-concentrators and fertiliser, and it is liable to have better smell control, but that's still going to be a long time stuck with just an Oddish.
Going for an oddish near evolving that's outside the zone is actually somewhat risky, as there isn't a guarantee that it will have enough lifespan left to evolve in. The increased growth rates in the SZ almost guarantee that any late-stage Oddish we find there will have enough life left for a failed evolution or two. I don't know how much time we could expect to shave off with this, but conservatively we shave off a few years, and if we get stupid lucky, we could get the Oddish evolving in a few months.
Thus, if we want to go for a young oddish, with better stink control, and a better rapport, but a substantially longer time until it turns into something more powerful, it is almost unquestionably better to go the way you are suggesting.
However, if we want an Oddish that can evolve into Gloom in a fraction of the time, I don't know if we could reasonably afford to go for an Oddish outside the SZ, where powerful Oddish are rarer and closer to death.
Ultimately, I'm rather torn, but I think I'll stay on this side of the fence. I wouldn't be hugely put out if yours wins, though, and if so, I'll be voting for going for a young Oddish.
[X] "I think that's a good idea for your Nidoran since we'd otherwise have to track it in the Safari Zone, but my Oddish shouldn't be a problem."
-[X] "I'm hoping to find one closer to evolution, and those Oddish are more common inside, and have more of their lifespans left."
I don't know if splitting the vote is a good idea, but I'm doing it anyway. I figure it's wise to explain that we have reasons to go for a SZ Oddish over and above the its relative ease. It will likely be far less undermining.
The contingency gear, presumably. The bags and such. We are probably going to want to bring the shovel with us regardless, for traps and fortifications and general utility, though.
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Sirrocco
Pedantic
Depends on the exact strategy. If we're literally depending on "find sleeping oddish, pour solution on them, wait for it to sink in, apply pokeball", and assuming that will work perfectly, then no, we don't need anything else. If we want any sort of backup plan at all, though, then that's going to involve stuff of one sort or another, and we might not want to carry all of the stuff with us through the safari zone. For example, it might be worth including a good (large) shovel or two, in case the thing shakes off the sleeping drug and tries to get away via the bury-deep-and-hibernate technique. If we're doing this in the Safari Zone, it won't be worth the weight (even if we do bring a shovel, we won't want to bring a large one). If we're doing this before we head in, though, and we can cache the shovels outside, it might well be worth it for the extra security. Stuff like that.
edit: added here to avoid double-posting
Moonlight concentrators, fertilizer, watering, and predation protection are things we can do to make evolution more likely to succeed, but they wont' necessarily shave that much time off of the time-to-evolve. The big savings in time-to-evolve is that pokemon who are domesticated and being trained specifically increase in ability (and therefore approach evolution) faster than pokemon in the wild. Here's Nurse Joy on the matter:
I do agree (and, indeed, did state) that if we wanted to ensure ourselves a near-to-evolution oddish, doing it outside might not be practical, based on time-to-find and similar. I think the lifespan thing would probably be okay, because things like moonlight reflectors, regular watering, protection from predation and so forth should be enough to make the evolution reasonably well assured when it goes for it, but we might simply not have enough time to find one.
Still, yes, I think we're overall in agreement with the essential options available here. If we want a particularly well-developed oddish, it needs to be SZ. If we're okay with getting a younger one, outside has real advantages. The space in the middle is ill-defined.
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- Location
- Rapidly approaching your location.
- Pronouns
- Any/Morb
Careful with the C word. I wouldn't wish integral upon my worst enemies...