Shield Hero, but hopefully Heroic

[X] You can tell right now that Itsuki isn't going to accept a duel now that he's protecting something more important than himself. "Run them down. I'll handle Itsuki."

No matter how noble we may believe our cause to be, the fact remains that we are, as of this moment, in no position to be attempting revolution. On top of having to deal with the actual, literal, world-ending catastrophe that is the Waves, where anything that could get in the way of, you know, defending the actual fucking world is a bad idea, we need to consolidate our power base and turn crucial figures in the noble courts, the military, and the civilian populace to our side before we can even think about launching a successful revolution, and having a system drawn up ahead of time to replace the one we're overthrowing is also a good idea if we want to ensure continuity and stability of essential government functions, like infrastructure upkeep, civil administration, and national defense.

There is a time and a place for everything, and no matter what the staunch revolutionaries in the crowd believe, now is not the time if we actually want to be successful. For now, it's in our long-term best interest to turn a blind eye to atrocity, and vow to use our shame as tinder to keep the fire of revolution going in our heart. Perhaps we can even secretly work with Itsuki in some capacity if we can find a use for his talents and ambition, which I'm sure we can if we play smart.

[X] You can tell right now that Itsuki isn't going to accept a duel now that he's protecting something more important than himself. "Run them down. I'll handle Itsuki."

[X] Viva la Revolution! If you must be pushed into open revolt... Then so be it. "Either you come with me and join Itsuki, or you leave, or you die. The world is wrong, the time for change is now."
Considering we just chose revolution last turn, let's keep going.

[X] Viva la Revolution! If you must be pushed into open revolt... Then so be it. "Either you come with me and join Itsuki, or you leave, or you die. The world is wrong, the time for change is now."

This might backfire, but slavery is bad and I really don't want to fight someone actively freeing slaves and escorting them to safety.

I ripped this whole dilemma out of Tactics Ogre when I planned this encounter out.

Both options are entirely valid, and have massive consequences that will change the quest radically. Both options will burn bridges, and come with significant risk.

Ugh, this choice is tearing me apart, but if we choose to revolt now, we pretty much kiss our chance goodbye at subverting the kingdom from the inside. We'll lose the little goodwill we have previously built up by chance and Yukihime and William will be on the run while trying to save the world!

Okay... Long-term thinking it is.

[X] You can tell right now that Itsuki isn't going to accept a duel now that he's protecting something more important than himself. "Run them down. I'll handle Itsuki."

Mizu said:

This might backfire, but slavery is bad and I really don't want to fight someone actively freeing slaves and escorting them to safety.

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It will backfire. The world is in the middle of a crisis right now, and us attempting to overthrow the system without having solid support from all sectors of the populace as well as a plan to keep the government running and the people safe during this time of crisis will only result in us taking canon!Itsuki's place as the instigator of a failed revolution that leaves refugees starving, homeless, and at the mercy of bandits and neighboring territories. In fact, in the chaos, we might actually end up creating more slaves than we set free, if the above-mentioned bandits decide that they can make a tidy profit selling captured refugees into slavery in the neighboring kingdoms. Not to mention what actual history shows will happen when slaves are freed without a solid plan to integrate them into society and the support of that society to do so.

The people getting swept up in revolutionary fervor can't see the consequences that lie beyond their own actions. If we act now, when support is thin and we have no real plan for how things should go afterwards, then the revolution is doomed to fail, we'll lose what little support we have and be forced to flee to another kingdom.

Sword of Mars said:

I ripped this whole dilemma out of Tactics Ogre when I planned this encounter out.

Both options are entirely valid, and have massive consequences that will change the quest radically. Both options will burn bridges, and come with significant risk.

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"There is blood on my hands - how long till it lies on my heart?"

Both options are tempting, but I have to side with @SVS on this. We need to be stronger and have more support from the people to have this revolution go anywhere.

SVS said:

It will backfire. The world is in the middle of a crisis right now, and us attempting to overthrow the system without having solid support from all sectors of the populace as well as a plan to keep the government running and the people safe during this time of crisis will only result in us taking canon!Itsuki's place as the instigator of a failed revolution that leaves refugees starving, homeless, and at the mercy of bandits and neighboring territories. In fact, in the chaos, we might actually end up creating more slaves than we set free, if the above-mentioned bandits decide that they can make a tidy profit selling captured refugees into slavery in the neighboring kingdoms. Not to mention what actual history shows will happen when slaves are freed without a solid plan to integrate them into society and the support of that society to do so.

The people getting swept up in revolutionary fervor can't see the consequences that lie beyond their own actions. If we act now, when support is thin and we have no real plan for how things should go afterwards, then the revolution is doomed to fail, we'll lose what little support we have and be forced to flee to another kingdom.

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Usually I wouldn't debate as the QM, but it's pretty annoying to see insightful posts be left unanswered. So consider this not actually my view on what I want in the quest, both are interesting options for me. I'm just you know... Interested in the points presented.

To be completely fair for the revolutionary side... The nations on this version of Earth aren't playing nice with each other and are actually slightly hoping that each other collapse so they can rip the spoils out of each other. This is why when a wave hits a country, the other countries don't even send a token force to protect that place and help fend off the wave... Even though it's in their best interest to stop the collapse of the world. The situation is already horribly fucked with how Melromarc cheated the rules making international cooperation something that isn't going to happen.

In fact, countries are flat out almost willing to go to war with each other despite... The world ending. You could argue forming an army would be beneficial to stopping the end of the world simply to have another large amount of bodies to throw in the grinder... And as the Shield Hero you already have support from a lot of demihumans and their nations so you wouldn't entirely be left alone to rot. Yukihime's rhetoric isn't something half assed either, she actually believes in what she's saying and it's advanced for this era and with her is a semi-popular spiritual leader who would make by himself a pretty good rebel leader if we go by the... Lackluster standards peasant uprisings have in general in our timeline.

Hell we see it in the manga how discontent the peasantry really are against the Crown and just how many problems there is all over the place. It's surprising just how duct taped together Melromarc still is when you arrived. You could even argue that because the world is in crisis it's the right time to raise your banner to take advantage of the discontentment of the people in the wake of the coming apocalypse.

There really isn't going to be a later, better time, once you order knights to run down civilians

Sword of Mars said:

To be completely fair for the revolutionary side... The nations on this version of Earth aren't playing nice with each other and are actually slightly hoping that each other collapse so they can rip the spoils out of each other. This is why when a wave hits a country, the other countries don't even send a token force to protect that place and help fend off the wave... Even though it's in their best interest to stop the collapse of the world. The situation is already horribly fucked with how Melromarc cheated the rules making international cooperation something that isn't going to happen.

In fact, countries are flat out almost willing to go to war with each other despite... The world ending. You could argue forming an army would be beneficial to stopping the end of the world simply to have another large amount of bodies to throw in the grinder... And as the Shield Hero you already have support from a lot of demihumans and their nations so you wouldn't entirely be left alone to rot.

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Absolutely true, but if the rival major powers are near-willing to go to war with the current, stable-ish Melromarc, then if we overthrow the ruling government and don't have a system ready to replace it, what's to stop one or more of the other nations from sliding up to our now-in-chaos "country" and carving up our territory for themselves? If we, as Shield Hero, declare ourselves Big Chungus of New Melromarc, we can probably reasonably expect support from Siltvelt and Schildfrienden, or at least a nonaggression agreement. But Faubley would almost certainly try to carve us up, at which point I'm fairly confident that Siltvelt and Schildfrieden would declare war. And there's no guarantee that, even if they both sign on to nonaggress us, that Siltvent and Schildfrieden won't still aggress one another, or try to use us as leverage to gain the edge over the other.

This at a time when the continent can ill afford a war between major powers. It's bad enough that they refuse to work together to defeat the Waves, but if open war were declared...

Yukihime's rhetoric isn't something half assed either, she actually believes in what she's saying and it's advanced for this era and with her is a semi-popular spiritual leader who would make by himself a pretty good rebel leader if we go by the... Lackluster standards peasant uprisings have in general in our timeline.

Hell we see it in the manga how discontent the peasantry really are against the Crown and just how many problems there is all over the place. It's surprising just how duct taped together Melromarc still is when you arrived. You could even argue that because the world is in crisis it's the right time to raise your banner to take advantage of the discontentment of the people in the wake of the coming apocalypse.

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So we've got the support of the civilian populace, or at least a large enough sector of them. That's good, but if our revolution only involves the lower classes, what do we do if we succeed? The reason it's so important to turn key nobles is because, once successful, we'll need people that know how the systems of government operate in order to keep vital services running-Things like infrastructure projects, which provide jobs and allow the transport of food, goods, and people; or the military, which will be needed to keep the kingdom safe in the event that an outside force tries to use the turmoil of revolution to their advantage. And to ensure that the military is still able to do its job, we also need to turn key military figures so that, once again, after the revolution we have enough people who know how things work that they can keep it running with only minor hiccups.

So we're one-third of the way there, but we still need the support of key nobles and military figures before we can pounce. If we make a good enough impression in the coming wave, that's probably a few good knights we can turn, and I'm sure if we aired our ideas in the right manner, in the right places, to the right people, we could get the word out to nobles sympathetic to the idea, like Van Reichnott or Eclair Seaetto. Maybe if we're lucky we can even turn Princess Melty- We do that, and we'll be in a good position to prop up a legitimate heir to the throne, while still putting in power someone sympathetic to our ideals.

[X] You can tell right now that Itsuki isn't going to accept a duel now that he's protecting something more important than himself. "Run them down. I'll handle Itsuki."

SVS said:

Absolutely true, but if the rival major powers are near-willing to go to war with the current, stable-ish Melromarc, then if we overthrow the ruling government and don't have a system ready to replace it, what's to stop one or more of the other nations from sliding up to our now-in-chaos "country" and carving up our territory for themselves? If we, as Shield Hero, declare ourselves Big Chungus of New Melromarc, we can probably reasonably expect support from Siltvelt and Schildfrienden, or at least a nonaggression agreement. But Faubley would almost certainly try to carve us up, at which point I'm fairly confident that Siltvelt and Schildfrieden would declare war. And there's no guarantee that, even if they both sign on to nonaggress us, that Siltvent and Schildfrieden won't still aggress one another, or try to use us as leverage to gain the edge over the other.

This at a time when the continent can ill afford a war between major powers. It's bad enough that they refuse to work together to defeat the Waves, but if open war were declared...

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If Faubley wanted the world, it'd have the world... Their technological might is so much superior than everyone elses, a war between almost any other nation would be like the British Empire invading an African Country in the industrial age. The problem is that it's corrupt and unstable as all hell, and is on the teetering brink of civil war because the leader is an absolute nutter. He might declare war on anyone for any reason and is in fact what he was gonna do anyway if people don't stop sending him playthings he can rip apart.

His 1999th wife just died, and he's looking for the 2000th... And without Malty making a complete ass of herself as she did in canon... Well Mirellia isn't just going to send her there. So the war is probably inevitable depending on my rolls after the first wave. (They will be public and I'll do them on forum).


There are some minor nations that will try to take you out, and some that might think about nipping at the heels of Melromarc but most of them are in fortress mode... Aside from Siltvelt which is looking to crush Melromarc.

SVS said:

So we've got the support of the civilian populace, or at least a large enough sector of them. That's good, but if our revolution only involves the lower classes, what do we do if we succeed? The reason it's so important to turn key nobles is because, once successful, we'll need people that know how the systems of government operate in order to keep vital services running-Things like infrastructure projects, which provide jobs and allow the transport of food, goods, and people; or the military, which will be needed to keep the kingdom safe in the event that an outside force tries to use the turmoil of revolution to their advantage. And to ensure that the military is still able to do its job, we also need to turn key military figures so that, once again, after the revolution we have enough people who know how things work that they can keep it running with only minor hiccups.

So we're one-third of the way there, but we still need the support of key nobles and military figures before we can pounce. If we make a good enough impression in the coming wave, that's probably a few good knights we can turn, and I'm sure if we aired our ideas in the right manner, in the right places, to the right people, we could get the word out to nobles sympathetic to the idea, like Van Reichnott or Eclair Seaetto. Maybe if we're lucky we can even turn Princess Melty- We do that, and we'll be in a good position to prop up a legitimate heir to the throne, while still putting in power someone sympathetic to our ideals.

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Melromarc's less of a centralized state, then it is a federation of feudal lords who serve the highest authority and it's up in the air if that's the Church or if its the Crown... The problem is that most of the nobles hate you, and the ones that don't are discriminated for being the wrong sort of religion and have barely any power... And there is no separation from Nobility and the Army. Individual knights and mercenaries would probably be willing to support you if you fought the wave valiantly as possible... I'll give you that.

Melromarc doesn't field a standing army, it can't afford to... Instead it relies on a network of conscripted levies and knights. There are maybe... Three to Four 'Keys' for military control, and that would be the Pope, the head of the Palace Guard, and various knighthood grandmasters... You are unlikely to get any of them to work with you... Princess Melty being a puppet also has it's own problems. Melty is way too young to rule, at best you'd be looked at as a Dong Zhuo to a Emperor Xian. You wouldn't avoid the civil war.

My argument is simple. Fuck slavery. That is all.

[X] You can tell right now that Itsuki isn't going to accept a duel now that he's protecting something more important than himself. "Run them down. I'll handle Itsuki."

The decision is hard. But theres no point in overthrowing a nation without prepping something to take it's place, we dont have a prospective governing body and as a hero we don't have time to rule anything right now. At best we can be like "While I was fighting the Bow Hero the slaves unfortunately died/disapeared/are MIA" but the books show straight-out how Itsuki's methods are wrong, well intentioned they may be (or knowing him. Not-so-well intentioned). Plus his whole Justice shtick would more than likely run counter to our own ideals at some point.

[X] You can tell right now that Itsuki isn't going to accept a duel now that he's protecting something more important than himself. "Run them down. I'll handle Itsuki."

Sword of Mars said:

If Faubley wanted the world, it'd have the world... Their technological might is so much superior than everyone elses, a war between almost any other nation would be like the British Empire invading an African Country in the industrial age. The problem is that it's corrupt and unstable as all hell, and is on the teetering brink of civil war because the leader is an absolute nutter. He might declare war on anyone for any reason and is in fact what he was gonna do anyway if people don't stop sending him playthings he can rip apart.

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Faubley is a general liability to everyone else on the continent, and regardless of player opinion on slavery, I think deposing of the man, the myth, the serial rapist is probably the better move all-around. Certainly not immediately, and certainly not without a plan to deal with the inevitable power vacuum that comes with cutting the head off the highest figure of the strongest kingdom in the land, but overall continental stability will be better off in the long-term without a nutter at the helm of the largest military power around.

Melromarc's less of a centralized state, then it is a federation of feudal lords who serve the highest authority and it's up in the air if that's the Church or if its the Crown... The problem is that most of the nobles hate you, and the ones that don't are discriminated for being the wrong sort of religion and have barely any power... And there is no separation from Nobility and the Army. Individual knights and mercenaries would probably be willing to support you if you fought the wave valiantly as possible... I'll give you that.

Melromarc doesn't field a standing army, it can't afford to... Instead it relies on a network of conscripted levies and knights. There are maybe... Three to Four 'Keys' for military control, and that would be the Pope, the head of the Palace Guard, and various knighthood grandmasters... You are unlikely to get any of them to work with you.

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This... Makes things a bit more difficult than I had imagined.

We can't immediately hope for any real form of support from the nobility, I'll give you that. We'd need to consistently make a positive showing of ourselves, get the Church and their dogmatically-enforced Shield-hatred abolished, and change society's views on both demi-humans and the Shield before we could make real headway into turning the right figures to our cause, which leads me to-

Princess Melty being a puppet also has it's own problems. Melty is way too young to rule, at best you'd be looked at as a Dong Zhuo to a Emperor Xian. You wouldn't avoid the civil war.

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I'm not looking to make her a puppet. We won't be around forever, and if we don't leave a competent, independent, and most importantly, legitimate ruler behind then everything we've worked for will have been for naught. She should already be being groomed to replace her mother, so if we convert her to our cause, and use the time between now and when she turns eighteen to gather resources, supporters, and change public and noble opinions, by the time she's old enough to take the throne we should have all the support in all the right places and all the right know-how to make this thing a success.

Muramasa said:

My argument is simple. Fuck slavery. That is all.

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You and many others, yes. But I think you and the others who feel that way are looking at slavery, seeing a bad thing, and knee-jerking your way into a course of action that will only make the situation worse.

You want to end slavery in a kingdom where demi-human slavery is commonplace, accepted, and allowed to continue on the back of institutionalized demi-human prejudices. If all you do is free the slaves but do nothing to address the underlying social problems that allow that system of slavery to exist, what then? You'd be releasing them into a society that doesn't want them, and where options will be scarce and oftentimes not much better than slavery. If you want to free the slaves, you first need to change public opinion of demi-humans and sweep away those prejudices. You need to create a society that wants to free its slaves, that wants to give demi-humans opportunities and upward social mobility. That they suffer in slavery for another four or five years but afterwards can leave their bondage into a society that wants them, is much better than if they go free now into a society that will still push back against accepting them for the next hundred-fifty years.

You can be a good person who wants to end slavery, but still realize that the time is not now and that other things need to change first before that can happen. Ultimately, I believe that the best way to accomplish that, the healthiest way to accomplish that, is to turn Melty over to our cause and get her to jumpstart the necessary social reforms that we might not be in a position to.

SVS said:

I'm not looking to make her a puppet. We won't be around forever, and if we don't leave a competent, independent, and most importantly, legitimate ruler behind then everything we've worked for will have been for naught. She should already be being groomed to replace her mother, so if we convert her to our cause, and use the time between now and when she turns eighteen to gather resources, supporters, and change public and noble opinions, by the time she's old enough to take the throne we should have all the support in all the right places and all the right know-how to make this thing a success.

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Sword of Mars said:

Life Span: Five Years. Ten Years in Good Conditions.

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...It's up in the air if you'll live to see if she turns eighteen. It's one of the reasons Yukihime is so stressed and worried about making change right now. Yukihime get's all these radical options because she knows that the hourglass sand is falling. I'm not objecting the validity but keep in mind the scale of long term plans in the quest... You don't have that much time left to live.

Sword of Mars said:

...It's up in the air if you'll live to see if she turns eighteen. It's one of the reasons Yukihime is so stressed and worried about making change right now. Yukihime get's all these radical options because she knows that the hourglass sand is falling. I'm not objecting the validity but keep in mind the scale of long term plans in the quest... You don't have that much time left to live.

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I don't recall if it's ever stated how old Melty is (though according to Trash in... I forget if it's the web novel or the light novel, she's gone through puberty) but I feel like she's somewhere between twelve and fifteen, though do correct me if the canon explicitly says otherwise. If we're fourteen, and we have five good years left in us, then we should be mostly good barring her being on the younger end of the scale/some untoward fate befalling us.

I can understand why both Yukihime and the players want to make change now, but I honestly believe that even if we don't live to see Melty's coronation, if we've done enough to get the ball rolling in the right direction we won't even need to, as sweet a victory it would be to see it.

SVS said:

I don't recall if it's ever stated how old Melty is (though according to Trash in... I forget if it's the web novel or the light novel, she's gone through puberty) but I feel like she's somewhere between twelve and fifteen, though do correct me if the canon explicitly says otherwise. If we're fourteen, and we have five good years left in us, then we should be mostly good barring her being on the younger end of the scale/some untoward fate befalling us.

I can understand why both Yukihime and the players want to make change now, but I honestly believe that even if we don't live to see Melty's coronation, if we've done enough to get the ball rolling in the right direction we won't even need to, as sweet a victory it would be to see it.

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Oh boy do I have some bad news for you. She sure is ten years old.