Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Eh. Appeals to authority were way more compelling before Tsunade tried to turn Akane into a strawberry pancake.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
It's not an appeal to authority. it's an appeal to the reality of the world that they live in.
e: I was using Jiraiya as an easy example because we know he's had to do things like that. But he's one of the "better" people in the world and still does stuff like that.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I agree that at this time there is very little point in confronting Kei about it. Ideally we should have called her out in the moment. Since that had passed I mostly don't want to give into Kei's emotional blackmail. Hazō should just live his life
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
*shrugs*
So long as we don't self- impose some sort of crazy double standards and punch people in the face from time to time when they cause us grief, I'm cool with that.
- Location
- CA
I'm going to repeat my standard statements of "leave this for after Mist" and "the fact we can theoretically fix that does not make us a good choice for doing so." The former is less valid, because Shikamaru's fuck-up makes this less likely to mend on its own, but the second is still very relevant. That said:
My main concern here is that the last update, with Shikamaru, suggests that Keiko is at an inflection point in her sense of self. She thinks she's being treated like a tool, and for once, she has the self-esteem to really object to that. This is excellent!
...but people in such a situation, after such an epiphany, have a distinct tendency to overcorrect. This is not a good time to tell Keiko that you can and should ignore the feelings of others if it'll lead to a better outcome, because if she's riding a tide of self-righteous indignation and self-actualization for the first time, then saying so to her face greatly increases the odds that she'll decide to act on that philosophy some time soon. More pointedly, she's much more likely to do so to Hazou's direct detriment, because (she'll argue) he has no right to object after explicitly laying out that philosophy--and this is after his implicit endorsement of the same, with choosing to meet Ami without telling Keiko.
In the spectrum of possible outcomes, the most likely positive outcome by far is that this argument will take root in her thoughts, and that she'll eventually come around to it. You should not count on this having any positive short-term effect, because arguments and people don't work that way. So if you want to weigh this sort of plan, you have to wager the positive long-term against the negative short-term, because even if it doesn't prompt a backlash of the type above, we're still willingly engaging with Keiko at a time she's still upset about it. (Because if she's not, why bother making the argument?) Even if there's no new emotional wound, we're still poking her in the old one with our presence.
So for the love of god (, Montresor!), do not do this plan in Mist. This is not a good time to willingly penalize ourselves short-term.
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- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
What, she'll invite us to taste a cask of Kurohige's Revenge?
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
That sounds fascinating. Like a trainwreck. You're not making a solid case for not voting that in ASAP. /s
But yes, fair point.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Not gonna lie this is really tempting...
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
So, if a second date with Ami might possibly be happening, we should start thinking about gifts now:
- Should we? If we don't, what do we have ready to say about it?
- If we do, what?
- Same sort of gift as before (something relatively inexpensive but personalized)?
- Something of high material value?
- Something completely different?
My brother reads the story-only thread but not the discussion, and he told me recently that he has no idea what Hazou's present was. Looking at the text, it might be a bit hard to figure out for someone who hasn't gone and read the plan.
Kalkin
(╯ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) ╯︵ ┻─┻
- Location
- AK
We could even invite Ami! I sort of want to do this just to see the fall out. I think it'd make sense in context. Hazou probably heard the announcement but has no knowledge of the fallout at this point.
- Location
- Pacific standard
[X] Family reunion
-Put together an engagement party for Keiko featuring boardgames!
- when inviting people always only mention the boardgames. This is a second level surprise party
-Invite:
-Ren
-Hana
-Shikamaru
-Snek uncle (Hiss from the top of roof tops and at random shadows. The message will get to him)
-Keikos parents
-Ami
-Tenten (using only pictography. ^_^ must be included at least 3 times)
-Greet Keiko at the door and give her an air hug (We're so good at respecting her boundaries)
-Put together an engagement party for Keiko featuring boardgames!
- when inviting people always only mention the boardgames. This is a second level surprise party
-Invite:
-Ren
-Hana
-Shikamaru
-Snek uncle (Hiss from the top of roof tops and at random shadows. The message will get to him)
-Keikos parents
-Ami
-Tenten (using only pictography. ^_^ must be included at least 3 times)
-Greet Keiko at the door and give her an air hug (We're so good at respecting her boundaries)
- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine
This deserves an omake. Especially the hissing part
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thanks for bringing it up. I'll add a reference.
- Location
- UK
Who here thinks they could somewhat consistently pass the Ideological Turing Test for Keiko? I'm talking about the actual test here, so let's say you and either Velorien or Eaglejarl answer questions from Keiko's viewpoint about what her opinions are, and the other QM guesses which answer was the 'real' Keiko. The judging QM would ask the questions. Assume writing style is controlled for through some clever undisclosed method.
If you just want to vote, hugs for yes, funny for no, but I'd prefer actual answers.
I don't feel confident that I could, hence the interest in this question.
If you just want to vote, hugs for yes, funny for no, but I'd prefer actual answers.
I don't feel confident that I could, hence the interest in this question.
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- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hm. I'm now imagining an in-universe Turing Test. "Is Keiko a real person, or is she an artificial intelligence controlled by some unknown super-intelligent entity?"
Hazō: What's an artificial intelligence?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hey, leave me out of this. Keiko is all @Velorien 's if you need actually correct viewpoint stuff.
- Location
- CA
I mean, I don't? But that's largely because moment-to-moment, a decent number of her beliefs regarding herself and her view of the world seem like post-hoc rationalizations to ensure the world still makes sense within her negative frame. There's recurring themes, sure, but up can be down and down can be up if it relates strictly to herself and that is not a recipe for consistency.
Hopefully there's some progress in this department, but if she's changing then we haven't had time to see exactly how so.
Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I think that I would've done a better job at it six months ago, when I still had the relevant self-hatred module running full-time on my brain. However, having had personal experience around mental illness + high expectations... Probably fairly well.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I'm highly skeptical that I could do it
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Evenstar
Triple Jump Unlocked
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I would argue that she has a highly consistent internal worldview with a large number of interlocking broken premises, and that they conspire to maintain that worldview in the face of all evidence to the contrary.
The relevant broken premises are:
1: Moral worth is judged by your level of innate talent. The talented rule the incompetent.
2: It is not possible to learn things, only to discover that you have the innate talent for them.
3: If you are incompetent at something, it's because you don't have the innate talent for it.
4: Only one failure is necessary to prove incompetence, regardless of your previous history.
5: Talent is inheritable, and therefore more is expected of those with talented families.
Consequent beliefs:
6: It's better not to try than try and fail, because any slip can and will be held against you.
7: By the same token, it's better to hide and repress your problems than share them with others.
8: It is impossible to prove that you are talented, but possible to prove you are incompetent.
9: You, coming from an illustrious family, are expected to prove that you are talented.
10: Being part of your family means you ought to be more worthy than other people who aren't.
11: You ought to be good at the things your family is good at.
12: Since you've failed a lot, you're incompetent. This is doubly bad because you were expected to be talented.
13: You have to put all your time into refining your skills. If you relax or spend personal time, you are sinning against your bloodline.
14: People who aren't ninja don't matter. Ninja who aren't Mori hardly matter.
15: You should emulate those in your family who did better with the resources they were given than you.
I could go on, but I'm starting to repeat myself. This is the core of it - talent defining moral worth, disbelief of the capacity for real growth, serious problems with emotional intimacy, and unjustifiable pride as a defense mechanism to protect inner fragility.
Further knock-on effects:
- Estrangement from your own emotions.
- Social anxiety, because everyone is always judging you.
- Simultaneous belief that you're better and worse than everyone else.
- Perception of oneself as a fraud: setting unattainably high standards.
- Living in a continual state of burnout due to pushing yourself too hard.
- Black-and-white thinking: inability to acknowledge flaws without rejecting the whole.
- Similarly, hero-worship of those you admire and inability to acknowledge their flaws.
- Deep desire for validation from your family, even as you reject their standards of judgement.
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- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
While my answer is an obvious no (maybe after I actually properly (and I mean really) finish Keiko's wiki entry, and even then), I do have general interest in impersonating other people's work- fanfiction really needs that.
There are various strategies you could take-
-Just read her scenes over and over again, until you see them in your dreams, and have her phrases become your catchphrases
-Have Keiko's dialogue always ready. I once made a nega-verse while using various user's modified quotes, so that could work here as well (though would be better for impersonating a large group, frankly).
-Methodical acting (RP-ing here I guess) from Keiko's point of view. Personal experience that's similar to Keiko would be necessary. That or extensive actor experience.
-Heck, Botnik keyboard could provide an advantage- just load Velorien's scenes of Keiko.
-Statistical analysis of Keiko's speech patterns- feels even more fancy, but having an overview of what words she keeps repeating, and just what are her stats compared to your simulacrum of Keiko... that could help, on another level.
-Kidnap Velorien and force him to write Keiko scenes instead of you. Failing that, kidnap someone who passed the test, and make them pass it again, this time for you.
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- Location
- UK