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Small Arms Commission Quest

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Lailoken said:
Meh, so let them buy in. There's already an opportunity for both Baal and Schaubler to buy in by burying the hatchet and adopting the Bagira round.

As long as somebody, anybody, will be cooperating domestically we are in a dramatically better position because purchases can be authorized.
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There's no incentive, though. Adopting someone else's bullet means paying licensing fees out the wazoo, and it is a mark of shame that you screwed up.

Dwergar said:
Well... Can we adopt whatever our designer-prince rolls out to show our loyalty to the nation, and then, once it fails, start handing out Bagiras from stock built?
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He doesn't do pistols, normally, but he may be able to be talked into doing a modification of the Frankengatsch.
 
Dwergar said:
Limiting our purchase of Bagiras (But not 9x23 cartridge. Cartridge we will instate as standard) for the duration of second competition, focusing them on ammo production (They have, on the other hand, time to experiment with it). Then, once the competition has been done, we either have Bagira or another pistol.
Also, if we already have contract on Bagira - how much would we have to pay in case we break the contract?
Forgot the proper term.
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Probably total cost+ royalties+damages so in excess of 2 million thaler easy. This is unacceptable. At the end of the day the domestic entrants can pound sand, their entries sucked and no amount of "DA JOOZ" will change that.
 
Sarpedon said:
Probably total cost+ royalties+damages so in excess of 2 million thaler easy. This is unacceptable. At the end of the day the domestic entrants can pound sand, their entries sucked and no amount of "DA JOOZ" will change that.
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Can we scale down initial production of the pistol itself, while setting up production of 9x23 and calling for second competition limiting entrants to that cartridge?
At the same time, we set up production of Bagiras, and get more entrants (including prince with his unkillable workhorses) - should we encounter too much trouble with first batches while getting capable semiauto in the same caliber, we could always use that factory to get new pistol going while dragging contract, it's eventual breach and lawsuits until the war starts.
 
Dwergar said:
Can we scale down initial production of the pistol itself, while setting up production of 9x23 and calling for second competition limiting entrants to that cartridge?
At the same time, we set up production of Bagiras, and get more entrants (including prince with his unkillable workhorses) - should we encounter too much trouble with first batches while getting capable semiauto in the same caliber, we could always use that factory to get new pistol going while dragging contract, it's eventual breach and lawsuits until the war starts.
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To be blunt, nobody will go for this, it overcomplicated, unnecessary, and nobody is being paid enough nor are they going to want to use something thats not their cartridge. Furthermore all this rigmarole will do nothing but destroy our reputation with foreign corporations. The domestics can whine all they like but in the end they put forth an inferior product.
 
Dwergar said:
Can we scale down initial production of the pistol itself, while setting up production of 9x23 and calling for second competition limiting entrants to that cartridge?
At the same time, we set up production of Bagiras, and get more entrants (including prince with his unkillable workhorses) - should we encounter too much trouble with first batches while getting capable semiauto in the same caliber, we could always use that factory to get new pistol going while dragging contract, it's eventual breach and lawsuits until the war starts.
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Did you literally read anything I just wrote? Scaling down production is bad. Changing calibers is bad. A second competition is bad squared. At this point of the trainwreck, you then suggest throwing more money at people, in order to piss more money away in testing, to lead into two expensive contracts- not just one!- before you change production which is expensive, and then there's a lawsuit which is more expense, and then your plan ends in a war.

Which is expensive.
 
7734 said:


Did you literally read anything I just wrote? Scaling down production is bad. Changing calibers is bad. A second competition is bad squared. At this point of the trainwreck, you then suggest throwing more money at people, in order to piss more money away in testing, to lead into two expensive contracts- not just one!- before you change production which is expensive, and then there's a lawsuit which is more expense, and then your plan ends in a war.

Which is expensive.
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There funny thing is that if anyone can escalate this minor procurement dispute into a world war and great depression, it's definitely Sufficient Velocity.
 
7734 said:
Did you literally read anything I just wrote? Scaling down production is bad. Changing calibers is bad. A second competition is bad squared. At this point of the trainwreck, you then suggest throwing more money at people, in order to piss more money away in testing, to lead into two expensive contracts- not just one!- before you change production which is expensive, and then there's a lawsuit which is more expense, and then your plan ends in a war.

Which is expensive.
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Truly, I'm most gifted at miscommunication!
Changing calibers is bad. Therefore, no change in the gun already accepted, unless my memory betrayed me and Bagira isn't chambered in 9x23.
Breaking contract is also bad. Therefore, no breaking it until we have a better option, and until we can minimise losses to companies of Balkhchivan - as far as I now, our geopolitical enemy on whom we'll be testing all our new toys in the end of the quest.
Scaling down ongoing production is really bad. But, as of now, Bagira is not only hasn't started production, arsenal's engineers hasn't yet started adapting the winner for it, or are in the early stages.
And we have pistol designers clamoring.

So, prolong the process of starting production (Press on engineers to work out the kinks in production etcetera) and do first few batches relatively small to appease these idiots, and announce second competition for firearms to be held with the only requirement of them using 9x23 cartridge.
If nothing else, we might get something better than Shaubler or C53 for allowed pistols, due to the unification of calibers.
 
Why do we want to appease a bunch of libelous incompetents? To be completely honest my reaction, and the question that needs to be answered with regard to the complaints and conspiracy theorizing is "So what?" In basically every competition in history that involved a large contract, the losers would invariably get salty and claim CORRUPTION, though in this case they have jumped to straight up libel. They are mad that we did not choose a local pistol off the shelf? Well all the off the shelf local pistols were trash, overdesigned, or underpowered, and we aren't going to design a new pistol since that goes against the whole point of taking something already extant.
 
[X]Publically present the Kaiser with some of the surviving arms from the testing phase, and that helmet with the dent and the cracked visor.
[X] Request to publicly publish the data from the testing phase to defend your decision.
 
Sarpedon said:
Why do we want to appease a bunch of libelous incompetents? To be completely honest my reaction, and the question that needs to be answered with regard to the complaints and conspiracy theorizing is "So what?" In basically every competition in history that involved a large contract, the losers would invariably get salty and claim CORRUPTION, though in this case they have jumped to straight up libel. They are mad that we did not choose a local pistol off the shelf? Well all the off the shelf local pistols were trash, overdesigned, or underpowered, and we aren't going to design a new pistol since that goes against the whole point of taking something already extant.
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Political realities are still realities, and an inherent part of the job. It was our responsibility to cover our assess by at the very least talking a domestic design to final trials.
 
Lailoken said:
Political realities are still realities, and an inherent part of the job. It was our responsibility to cover our assess by at the very least talking a domestic design to final trials.
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What political realities would these be? A handful of venture capitalists, a crazed designer and the Austro-Hungarian Daily Mail and National Enquirer do not a major political bloc make, especially when they shoot themselves in the foot by yelling about conspiracy theories. In the end if they keep wurbling they will get slapped down.
 
Lailoken said:
Political realities are still realities, and an inherent part of the job. It was our responsibility to cover our assess by at the very least talking a domestic design to final trials.
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You're gonna have to find where this is in writing. We pick the good gun. The domestic designs weren't.

Dwergar said:
Truly, I'm most gifted at miscommunication!
Changing calibers is bad. Therefore, no change in the gun already accepted, unless my memory betrayed me and Bagira isn't chambered in 9x23.
Breaking contract is also bad. Therefore, no breaking it until we have a better option, and until we can minimise losses to companies of Balkhchivan - as far as I now, our geopolitical enemy on whom we'll be testing all our new toys in the end of the quest.
Scaling down ongoing production is really bad. But, as of now, Bagira is not only hasn't started production, arsenal's engineers hasn't yet started adapting the winner for it, or are in the early stages.
And we have pistol designers clamoring.

So, prolong the process of starting production (Press on engineers to work out the kinks in production etcetera) and do first few batches relatively small to appease these idiots, and announce second competition for firearms to be held with the only requirement of them using 9x23 cartridge.
If nothing else, we might get something better than Shaubler or C53 for allowed pistols, due to the unification of calibers.
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We don't have pistol designers clamoring, we have the current gun market. The fact we're even putting in a pistol order at all instead of telling the officer corps "We'll buy ammo for gun X" is not the norm, which is why there's been some middling confusion. Either way, asking people to change calibers is bad, because that entails a significant amount of redesign in most of the guns, considering the changes in forces. Breaking contract is bad, and being in the position to plan to break contract is the kind of negotiation in bad faith that is both easy to find and easy to pour gasoline on when it turns into a dumpster fire later. Changing production quanities and schedules is terrible, because the tooling and redesign is built around extremely specific batch numbers and run times, which affects costs up and down the supply chain. Cutting as few as five hundred guns from the order will raise prices immensly, and defaulting on the contract puts us on the hock for the bonds they use to start the shop- which is probably going to be a couple thousand kreutzer.

So yeah, this isn't miscommunication, this is you not understanding the piles of shit that sits between "Declare result" and "Begin Production" with a side of not knowing that the entire goddamn point of this exercise was not paying through the nose for a custom-design pistol for the Army.
 
Lailoken said:
Political realities are still realities, and an inherent part of the job. It was our responsibility to cover our assess by at the very least talking a domestic design to final trials.
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What would that accomplish? Even if we'd included them in the trials we wouldn't have selected them, so it would solve nothing. Again, this protest isn't driven by pride, it's driven by money. The only thing that would satisfy them is getting the contract.
 
Grin_Reaper said:
What would that accomplish? Even if we'd included them in the trials we wouldn't have selected them, so it would solve nothing. Again, this protest isn't driven by pride, it's driven by money. The only thing that would satisfy them is getting the contract.
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They would complain no matter what, but fewer people would listen.
 
[X] Publically present the Kaiser with some of the surviving arms from the testing phase, and that helmet with the dent and the cracked visor.
[X] Request to publicly publish the data from the testing phase to defend your decision.
 
Alright, I let this sit while I worked on some other stuff, so lets wrap this up.
Adhoc vote count started by ThatGuyWithIdeas on Apr 6, 2018 at 5:06 AM, finished with 58 posts and 13 votes.
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Self-Loading Pistol Commission Stage Six Part two/stage seven
  • Threadmarks
    • Having already requested the ability to publish the data from the testing phase publically, you take the ultimate, final option, and give the Kaiser the less damaged testing articles, as well as that helmet one of the Baal pistols damaged. The Kaiser seems moderately alarmed that one of the pistols managed to destroy a close helm, but does want to test things himself. After all, he's the Kaiser, and he likes to be included in things.

    After one round from the Baal, he swears it off. The Frankengatsch is fun in his opinion, and a great gun for Chamois, but after discussions with members of the Guards Cavalry division, and the Kaiser's personal bodyguard, he admits it isn't quite practical. The Kaiser enjoys the Schaubler a bit too much, and has given them a royal and imperial warrant for "the ingenious little vest pistol we enjoy so much." Long story short, while he is disappointed in the domestic arms industry, he wonders why you didn't adopt the C53 (which the crown is going to purchase privately to arm the Imperial Family's personal bodyguards.) But a Bagira is fine too, and he's willing to back your position.

    Needless to say when the testing data is finally published, you are cleared, and take the high road by not pursuing a slander and libel case against the publishers. Mrs. Arbatescu isn't nearly as kind however, and will probably own at least one major paper by the end of the year.

    With the Kaiser's approval, production begins immediately, and Bagira pistols begin tricking off the assembly line at Tschepele. Until such time as production catches up with the schedule for deployment, sales to officers are restricted to the Units being issued Bagiras. IWM has taken this opportunity gleefully and is producing pistols in 7.65x25 with a 9x23mm SR version planned for release next year.

    Schaublers are flying off the shelves for the general staff, and other rear echelon officers, and have proven to be popular in that regard. Dr. Raussenstein bought one, and has decided to recommend them to his cyclist patients.

    That's a wrap. Light(er) Machine Guns starts tomorrow.
     
  • Threadmarks
    • Light(er) Machine Gun Commission Stage One (FY858)
  • Threadmarks
    • With the advent of smokeless powder, repeating weapons have become practical, and with them the first truly automatic weapons. Although the Gemeinsame Armee and the Kreigsmarine are able to maintain adequate production of Arbatescu produced Holborn guns to meet their own needs, the various Landsturms of the crownlands are left jockeying for the odd 'excess' lot. Needless to say, the various Landstage and Ministerpraesidenten are unhappy with the present circumstances, as are the General Staff who would like a quicker roll-out of machine guns than Mrs. Arbatescu's firm can presently manage, at a hopefully better price.

    On a related note, the Cavalry and the Seebattaillone would love a machine gun that didn't weigh 70kg wet, and require a dedicated gun carriage and limber or a team of porters.

    Naturally, a commission has been established, and you will lead it. Now then, who else will join you? (Choose Six)

    [] SR Tidur, Engineer for the Ordinance Board.
    [] Captain RI Else, semi-disgraced Naval procurement officer.
    [] M. Zaslovski, Infantry Officer (Zeměbrana.)
    [] Josip Kaldhoff, Cavalry officer.
    [] S. Meyer, contract engineer.
    [] Harel Cseh, Seebataillone officer.
    [] Bovo Sorrel, Naval Gunnery Officer.
    [] Bokor Béla, Cavalry officer (Honvéd.)
    [] Sandor Ivalko, Infantry officer.
    [] Herceg Kaila of Kapan, Prince of the Blood and amateur firearms designer.​
     
    Last edited:
  • Threadmarks
    • [x] Herceg Kaila of Kapan, Prince of the Blood and amateur firearms designer.
    [x] Harel Cseh, Seebataillone officer.
    [x] SR Tidur, Engineer for the Ordinance Board.
    [x] S. Meyer, contract engineer.
    [x] M. Zaslovski, Infantry Officer (Zeměbrana.)
    [x] Sandor Ivalko, Infantry officer.

    Bloody infantry is given, they will shoot and be shot at with the thing, primarily.
    Prince is for the clout in the light of handgun debacle.
    Engineers are there to make sure guns are good.
    And Seebataillone officer because I dislike cavalry.
     
    [X] Herceg Kaila of Kapan, Prince of the Blood and amateur firearms designer.
    [X] SR Tidur, Engineer for the Ordinance Board.
    [X] Captain RI Else, semi-disgraced Naval procurement officer.
    [X] M. Zaslovski, Infantry Officer (Zeměbrana.)
    [X] Josip Kaldhoff, Cavalry officer.
    [X] S. Meyer, contract engineer
     
    [x] Herceg Kaila of Kapan, Prince of the Blood and amateur firearms designer.
    [x] Harel Cseh, Seebataillone officer.
    [x] SR Tidur, Engineer for the Ordinance Board.
    [x] S. Meyer, contract engineer.
    [x] M. Zaslovski, Infantry Officer (Zeměbrana.)
    [x] Sandor Ivalko, Infantry officer.

    Kapan sounds like a fun guy.
     
    Plan Blend It

    [X] SR Tidur, Engineer for the Ordinance Board.
    [X] M. Zaslovski, Infantry Officer (Zeměbrana.)
    [X] Josip Kaldhoff, Cavalry officer.
    [X] Harel Cseh, Seebataillone officer.
    [X] Bovo Sorrel, Naval Gunnery Officer.
    [X] Herceg Kaila of Kapan, Prince of the Blood and amateur firearms designer.
     
    [X] SR Tidur, Engineer for the Ordinance Board.
    [X] Sandor Ivalko, Infantry officer.
    [X] Josip Kaldhoff, Cavalry officer.
    [X] Harel Cseh, Seebataillone officer.
    [X] Bovo Sorrel, Naval Gunnery Officer.
    [X] Herceg Kaila of Kapan, Prince of the Blood and amateur firearms designer.

    I think including a cavalry officer and an infantry officer is a good plan here, if we want to get input from all of the relevant services. Also since we have the Ordinance Board's engineer, I see no need to include the contract fellow.
     
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