Dragon Ball: After the End

How do I get the feeling that whenever cultists sees Kakara their reaction will be to go



On the Dragon...Eh if we can beat the crap out of it and bind it or something cool, but if we can't kill em.

It sucks, but this guy has admitted that he's genocides entire worlds for nom noms and even when faced with what we are now (someone with a better knowledge and better internet connection what kind of comparable power level are we in control of ATM? Like do we equal a Majin Buu or Perfect Cell right now?) he's still refusing to surrender.

I mean personally I'd be in favour of ending him if we can't make any progress convincing him to stop being a dick, binding things and leaving them around to become problems later just isn't kosher.

Tarantio said:

torturing and maybe brainwashing him witch is your option

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Ah, strawmanning. A clearer indicator that it's futile to argue with someone there never was.

Or you guys could just give it the Kid Buu treatment.

Let me suggest a variety of ideas I'm comfortable with. Remember, this is approval voting, we should support EVERY plan we think is viable. Key points:

1) I am not willing to vote to kill the dragon without first interrogating it and investigating our options after defeating it.

2) I am not willing to vote directly to absorb the dragon or seal it within our minds. Even assuming we can do that, there is no plausible way for us to guarantee doing it safely without further investigation.

3) I would actually prefer NOT to vote on what we do AFTER we defeat and interrogate the dragon, because it is almost certain that there will be surprises that change what we want to do as a result of that. There is no reason for us to construct our vote option so as to lock down our future ability to react flexibly to information we don't have yet.

4) Kakara believes that the Sealing is deeply wrong, this is fundamental to her. It's a foundation of Jaffur's trust in her, too. I don't particularly want to create a situation where Kakara has an incentive to start waffling on the Sealing, or giving Dandeer an opportunity to say "OH, so when it's a big world-devouring dragon you could take apart with ONE HAND you want him Sealed, but when it's a CRAZY SUPER SAIYAN trusting his OWN MOTHER to say he needs to be Sealed is just TOO MUCH!" That sounds like a great way to undermine Convictions and A Cause and so on.

...

[X] Subdue the dragon utterly. Stun it, physically disable it if you have to. Hold it in place and lock it down with raw power.
-[X] Call on all the sorcerors to Seal away its psychic and ki powers.
-[X] Interrogate it. It calls itself an embodiment of endings, it claims to be a devourer of worlds, and you will know why.

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting while harming him as little as possible.
-[X] Talk to him, try to make him see reason, try to convince him to surrender himself to us if we can't make him change his mind.

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] See if the Sorcerers can Seal him or something.

[x]Hold down the dragon. Ask the sorcerers "Can you turn him into dragon balls"

[X] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down. See if sharing the knowledge and sensation that All is One can convince him onto a better path.

[X] Defeat him, then show him how All Is One

Andres110 said:

Read the context of an argument. The person I was responding to wants to kill him as a FIRST resort. This is important, which is why you should always read and take into account context.

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False, when he first showed up we tried diplomacy, when we became capable of killing him in one punch, man, we offered him surrender, killing him is not the first resort, it is the resort before risking others by trying to seal him which could fail in the short or long term.

[X] Simon_Jester

Carrnage said:

False, when he first showed up we tried diplomacy, when we became capable of killing him in one punch, man, we offered him surrender, killing him is not the first resort, it is the resort before risking others by trying to seal him which could fail in the short or long term.

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Well no, it's like:

1) We tried diplomacy when he was far more powerful and thought he could kill us all effortlessly. Didn't work.
2) We offered surrender in the very moment that we first exceeded him in power. He bravado'd us.
3) AFTER we defeat the dragon, we are in a much better position to assess whether we can trap him or talk him down.
4) THEN if that doesn't work, MAYBE our only option is to kill him.

I mean, seriously, shouting "NEVER!" the moment the enemy gets the upper hand with This One Weird Trick, then fighting on for a while and trying to pull out a win somehow, is pretty common behavior. It may just mean the dragon is personally brave, as opposed to being personally cowardly. That still doesn't mean we need to vote to kill it before seeing the results of "Operation Beat Up The Dragon" with our overwhelming power advantage.

I don't think @PoptartProdigy said anything about our powerup automatically expiring at the end of the next update, so I don't see any reason to assume that we have to construct a plan that resolves everything in one update. Defeating the dragon can be one update, figuring out what to do with it afterwards after we gain more information and have more direct control over the situation can be the next.

Ando Owen said:

[] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down. See if sharing the knowledge and sensation that All is One can convince him onto a better path.
--[] If he refuses, see if you can seal him inside yourself, becoming both prison and warden.

This plan is excellent I think. It manages to offer several possibilities while remaining relatively short and narratively good. It's not a soup of options, it's a logical evolution of diplomacy. It also reflects both DBZ and Kakara's spirit, both making a friend out of an enemy and making people understand each other.

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My objection to this is that it's premature for us to decide that sealing him inside ourselves is the best option. Especially since after we drop our current transformation we're losing over 99% of the power that permitted us to seal him in the first place. And since some of our most interesting abilities involve mind or spirit shenanigans that we might not be able to risk taking once we had to worry about the dragon's soul/spirit/essence/whatever escaping somehow.

Can we commit to talking to the dragon to see if we can make him stand down, WITHOUT committing to having a dragon psychically embedded inside our heads?

Bakkasama said:

6) *Sigh* Turn him into dragonballs

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Look, we may not be able to, and asking may make Dandeer facepalm, but it's far from the worst idea. I'd much rather seal the dragon into a series of inanimate objects such that the dragon isn't even conscious unless the objects are brought together, than seal the dragon aware and trapped insi

Andres110 said:

Ah, strawmanning. A clearer indicator that it's futile to argue with someone there never was.

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Okay please explain to me how that was a strawman argument.
Solitary confinement is torture, yes it may be usefull sometime but its still torture and I didn't say we will surely indulging in brainwashing him only that we may, maybe it was too condensed and I skipped explaining what I meant with brainwashing him. But to me at least the result of kakara being the only option for socialization for the dragon witch is otherwise in a hole with maybe a window on the outside and no body seem pretty much straight brainwash when you add kakara tring to convince him to change in that situation.
I'm not trying to be insulting to you or your inteligence or at least I don't think I am, so can you please do the same to me?

Simon_Jester said:

[X] Defeat him, then show him how All Is One

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If we manage this, it will be unprecedented, as far as gohan, goku and probably even the kais know there is no way to show someone that All is One, merely put them at the start of the path and tell them when they've wandered off it.

Not saying that we shouldnt try just, that it'll be challenge.


[X] Subduethe dragon utterly. Stun it, physically disable it if you have to. Hold it in place and lock it down with raw power.
-[X] Call on all the sorcerors to Seal away its psychic and ki powers.
-[X] Interrogate it. It calls itself an embodiment of endings, it claims to be a devourer of worlds, and you will know why.

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting while harming him as little as possible.
-[X] Talk to him, try to make him see reason, try to convince him to surrender himself to us if we can't make him change his mind.

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] See if the Sorcerers can Seal him or something.

[x]Hold down the dragon. Ask the sorcerers "Can you turn him into dragon balls"

[X] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down. See if sharing the knowledge and sensation that All is One can convince him onto a better path.

[X] Defeat him, then show him how All Is One

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting while harming him as little as possible.
-[X] Talk to him, try to make him see reason, try to convince him to surrender himself to us if we can't make him change his mind.
- -[X] if we can't reach him with words and he doesn't surrender himself make him go unconscious without harming him, and ask the sorcerers if they can force a masque on him to seal most if not all his power while mantaining his memories and personality. Then hand him to your father so he could be taken to prison for the crimes he committed.

[X] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down. See if sharing the knowledge and sensation that All is One can convince him onto a better path.
--[X] If he refuses, see if you can seal him inside yourself, becoming both prison and warden.

@LucidityWaver , would it be a problem to just... vote to defeat the dragon and talk to him first, and then later decide whether or not to engage in risky or ethically problematic sealings, and if so, which ones?

We don't actually have to decide literally everything in this one vote, do we? Why not separate out the decision into the step we can all agree on, followed by the steps that some of us might disagree with in the next update?

Simon_Jester said:

Monado has suggested some very weird things and has a strange sense of humor.

I'm not sure the fact that it was his idea is a point in its favor. He knows what it'll do; that doesn't mean it's harmless by my standards.

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He wants it to be sealed in Maya, and for them to become friends. But Kakara would be a better choice to keep him imprisoned, due to her really high Willpower.

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Gore17 said:

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Apart from the beating him up and the talking it up part seem a little divisive in what we want after, should we go with simon_jester idea of doing the after battle later or should we try to vote only on what type of sealing\dragonball we want?

Since Kakara is against Torture or Violating someone's mind as was done to Jarron, and considering we don't understand its powers we can't depower it safely, AND it's an unrepentant genocidal monster who won't surrender when it knows it's beaten, I only see one realistic option here.

[X] May you find peace in your next life.

deadcrystal said:

Since Kakara is against Torture or Violating someone's mind as was done to Jarron, and considering we don't understand its powers we can't depower it safely, AND it's an unrepentant genocidal monster who won't surrender when it knows it's beaten, I only see one realistic option here.

[X] May you find peace in your next life.

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While I agree with you, unfortunately, Kakara doesn't:

PoptartProdigy said:

Protector [Foundational Trait]: Meerak forced you to confront the question of what kind of person you really are. It was a painful year, figuring out the answer, but now you have it. You have your powers so that you can keep people safe. Everybody. Even those who don't want to be. People who are working to hurt others need to be stopped, but that doesn't mean you need to sink to their level. At the end of the day, the wicked need to be stopped, but you aren't them -- and you won't become them. That might mean that you need to talk them down, or it might mean that you need to fight. So be it. But no matter what, you know one thing about yourself: Thou shalt not kill. You gain heavy vote weighting against the use of lethal force on sapient beings, and will never default to it of your own will, even against Hated Enemies. The use of lethal force will never be presented as a default option; the players must write such options in if they want them. However, Kakara now gains a moderate bonus on all checks made in service of actions taken to protect the lives or safety of others. You no longer encounter barriers or penalties to combat skill training. This trait may, still, be developed further...

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And we're currently in a position where we can easily overpower our opponent. If not now, then when will Kakara be able to follow her ideology?

Edit: The only real argument against sealing him is that we don't know much about psychic in general, which can easily be corrected by talking to Chiaotzu who currently resides in the Afterlife.

I took all the "Share All is One" votes

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting while harming him as little as possible.
-[X] Talk to him, try to make him see reason, try to convince him to surrender himself to us if we can't make him change his mind.

[X] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down. See if sharing the knowledge and sensation that All is One can convince him onto a better path.

[X] Defeat him, then show him how All Is One

[X] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down. See if sharing the knowledge and sensation that All is One can convince him onto a better path
--[X] If he refuses, see if you can seal him inside yourself, becoming both prison and warden.

Don't bother talking. Or should I say, just talking. We've got something much better on hand. Do you know how hard it would be to kill when you feel like you know each and every one of the people you're going to send off the mortal coil?

Edit: Also, great update Poptart, holy shit.

[X] Subdue the dragon utterly. Stun it, physically disable it if you have to. Hold it in place and lock it down with raw power.
-[X] Call on all the sorcerors to Seal away its psychic and ki powers.
-[X] Interrogate it. It calls itself an embodiment of endings, it claims to be a devourer of worlds, and you will know why.

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting while harming him as little as possible.
-[X] Talk to him, try to make him see reason, try to convince him to surrender himself to us if we can't make him change his mind.

[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] See if the Sorcerers can Seal him or something.

[x]Hold down the dragon. Ask the sorcerers "Can you turn him into dragon balls"

[X] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down. See if sharing the knowledge and sensation that All is One can convince him onto a better path.

[X] Defeat him, then show him how All Is One
Simon_jester creates good votes.
[X] Defeat him quickly, utterly and as painlessly as possible, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting.
-[X] Then talk to him see if you make him stand down.
--[X] If he refuses, try and seal him within yourself. You'll be his prison, warden and guard.
[X] Defeat him quickly and utterly, locking down his power. Make him unable to continue fighting while harming him as little as possible.
-[X] Talk to him, try to make him see reason, try to convince him to surrender himself to us if we can't make him change his mind.
- -[X] if we can't reach him with words and he doesn't surrender himself make him go unconscious without harming him, and ask the sorcerers if they can force a masque on him to seal most if not all his power while mantaining his memories and personality. Then hand him to your father so he could be taken to prison for the crimes he committed.
Without the worry about this being offensive to Kakara, I think that this is good, if only becuase this is just about the only way that I can see Dazarel having a redemption arc, and could get a good power up. The risk of possession or whatever is real, but a seal inside her mind and or soul would be a SEAL, meaning, `reduced power`, which seems to be definitional.

I still loved that we managed to actually fucking hide the formation of the Genki Dama for a good while.

Kakara the Stealth Spirit Bomber, lol.

More seriously, I unironically expect her to be known as Saint Kakara worldwide by this point.

Ridiculously Average Guy said:

I still loved that we managed to actually fucking hide the formation of the Genki Dama for a good while.

Kakara the Stealth Spirit Bomber, lol.

More seriously, I unironically expect her to be known as Saint Kakara worldwide by this point.

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Saint Karen, you mean.ThoughI doubt it since Garenhulders have no measure of how big a threat it was ir how legendary genki dama is.

So um...is the Enemy going to notice this?

Simon_Jester said:

@LucidityWaver , would it be a problem to just... vote to defeat the dragon and talk to him first, and then later decide whether or not to engage in risky or ethically problematic sealings, and if so, which ones?

We don't actually have to decide literally everything in this one vote, do we? Why not separate out the decision into the step we can all agree on, followed by the steps that some of us might disagree with in the next update?

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That's a fair point.

For now, until I can make time to catch up to the thread again:
[X] Simon_Jester

faflec said:

So um...is the Enemy going to notice this?

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Nah, Spirit bomb doesn't look like a single powerful ki signature, so it's fine.

From space it still looks like a normal world, it's just that all the ki in said world is in harmony.
~~~~
Meanwhile, in the afterlife, THE HYPE IS REAL.

[X] Subdue the dragon utterly. Stun it, physically disable it if you have to. Hold it in place and lock it down with raw power.
-[X] Call on all the sorcerors to Seal away its psychic and ki powers.
-[X] Interrogate it. It calls itself an embodiment of endings, it claims to be a devourer of worlds, and you will know why.

Ridiculously Average Guy said:

From space it still looks like a normal world, it's just that all the ki in said world is in harmony.

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Shit. Now that I think about it, the Enemy probably already know about the Genki Dama; there is no way he doesn't realize an entire solar system in harmony is suspicious as fuck.