I mean, they can also work on their own projects. Honestly though we might want to consider modifying human minions even if not for the lab. We could even add a mechanism to keep them from betraying us. It's hard to make an intelligent creature with human level mental capacity. Actually... Hey Jay what level of bio would we need for a human level or higher intelligence?
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I mean, they can also work on their own projects. Honestly though we might want to consider modifying human minions even if not for the lab. We could even add a mechanism to keep them from betraying us. It's hard to make an intelligent creature with human level mental capacity. Actually... Hey Jay what level of bio would we need for a human level or higher intelligence?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I would not expect it to be a clear sliding scale. People with bio -1 manage to make human level intelligences all the time by accident even.
So our bio skills can likely make all sorts of chimeras with the proper starting DNA. Which is more likely to be the actual limiting factor then our bio skills. Also incubation time. Like we can make a clone of ourselves just as smart as we are, but the problem should be clear.
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JayTar
Idea briefcase
Right thanks for the reminder about posting the created-intelligence rules. I'll try to get that out after the update.
The short of it is that created intelligences tend to be narrower in scope. You saw this back during the festival tournament. The robot relied entirely on equipment for movement. Each tier of the "intelligence" component over 4 is another skill.
That is for artificial creations at least.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I assume that bio can cheat by taking and adapting existing intelligences? Like take a dog brain and super charge it. Of course this means that you can't hard code loyalty like you can with a more mechanical AI, but it does make flexibility easier.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
See here's the thing, though. It's dedicating an action every turn. That's a shaping thing. Now, if that sort of education really is part of our standard process, then that could be okay, but if we're left trying to come up with ways to extract value out of that dedicated action? There's not a lot of weight in that thing. Even at very low levels of effective weight, it's not giving us the action it's taking from us... and further contracts are only going to be pushing us to teach more. We don't need that. We don't need that. The weight isn't worth the actions, and the boons are only going to help with teaching. Sure, we might be able to use those boons to teach people to fear us... but unless we're regularly spending AP to teach people to fear us, and would be anyway, then it's still a sink.
Part of the lesson of these games is that you shouldn't necessarily take every opportunity to grab power that you can... and eventually the weightgain from the teaching contracts is going to be a small enough effective gain that it'll fade into insignificance... at which point it's effectively demanding permanent-forever investments of time in return for buffs that only apply when we teach people. It's not worth it. It's not worth it on a practical level for our own use, and it's absolutely not worth it from the perspective of Leviathan as a girl who's going to have to keep doing this stuff for the rest of her life.
That's an excellent point on the "contest" thing. Thank you, and also we should be trying to work that. As for teaching... I'm not opposed to learning how to teach, and maybe doing it occasionally when the situation calls for it. I'm opposed to taking the first teaching contract, and thereby searing it into our soul as something that we have to keep doing at least once a week forever, in exchange for a small amount of weight and a not-terribly-useful boon, and unlocking later boons that probably also wouldn't be all that good for us... and we're small fry enough, and he's entrenched enough, that our chances of getting to the point where he'd offer us a contract with a green/yellow cost is really very low.
Fair point on the monster mash, and that's a good goal to pursue in general.
I'm not opposed to the idea of making minions. I definitely see minion monsters in our future, but I don't think we can afford to be entirely dependent on them for self-protection once we hit the big leagues. We need to have at least some capacity for handling violence built in, if only because we won't always have our minions available. That's why I was suggesting to focus on implants and augments as our core technology focus - we can use the same breakthrough to first strengthen ourself and then also strengthen our minions. Once we get good enough at it, I suspect that we could boost our income by offering implants as well.
...though now that I think about it, I'm imagining something that looks and acts roughly like a suit of biological power armor... except it turns out that it's made up of a bunch of minions.
As far as being personally good at combat... I don't think it should be a primary path to power or anything. We took chargen maluses in it, after all. I note, though, that those maluses aren't as bad as they look. Once we get a bit of weight under our belt, getting up to "basic competence" levels should be doable without too much effort, and I think it'll be worth it. Like, I'm cool with letting it lag behind our other skills a bit, but we shouldn't neglect it entirely.
Admittedly, @Dreaming Circuit's point about it being a contest rather than a fight does lower the priority a fair bit... and if "defeating monsters of the infinite boundary" weight/boons can be achieved by hiding behind our minions and letting them do the work, then that would drop it further. Even so... well, like I said, having at least some ability at self-defense that we can carry with us at all times seems like it might be important before we hit the big leagues. "When the meal is over the knives come out." That's a thing.
Other side note: having a hyperloyal implanted battle-mind symbiote that we can allow to run our body for us (or at least feed us battle strategies) when we get into fights also seems like an interesting way to do things.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Which seems like a bigger accomplishment killing a monster or making a monster?
Sirrocco
Pedantic
Depends on the monsters in question.
If you're talking about the creatures out on the horizon... we can't make monsters like that. Also, killing them isn't just a source of weight. It's also the only source of boon effects that I'm aware of that isn't limited to whatever the local gods happen to be handing out. Still, it's risky and twisty and the fact is that it isn't something that we should actively pursue all that hard even in the medium term. It's not really worth worrying about.
Additionally, it's been pointed out that weight gains from beating people is an "in competition" thing. Since we don't have to play meathead for that, I'm willing to accept that learning combat skills is really only necessary/useful for self-defense - ie, if we get attacked without our minions. Further, the local sociopolitical environment is such that we don't need that until we're actually in a position to go on expeditions. So that's cool. Basically, we can pretty much neglect it in anything other than a "long-term planning" sort of way until we get to the point where we're ready to actually leave the city... and that's probably something that ought to wait until after next year's minion-fighting competition, unless something odd happens or more info comes out or whatever.
Still... well, as we've seen, minions are often inflexible, and there are ways that you can be deprived of them. I continue to assert that we'll want a decent level of ability at personal self-defense integrated into our body before we head out to the infinite horizon... and it's pretty clear that we will want to go out there eventually. I think that building that into our long-term planning (like, say, our general research plans) would not be a mistake.
On the bright side... well, if our only actual concern that requires personal combat effectiveness is as a survival thing (which it basically is) and our only real survival concern is going to be when we head outside the walls for expeditions into the wilds (which seems to be the case) then our personal combat effectiveness solution doesn't have to be limited to what we can fit into our dashing and stylish lab coat. Basically, we can do things like build a full-body total coverage suit of biological power armor, and just never take it off while we're out there... and that's the sort of thign that we should be seriously considering when we're building up to said expeditions... which is not yet.
Now, I personally would love to have Leviathan go full transhuman and cram her body full of low-profile bio-augs, because I love that stuff. but I suppose it doesn't need to be particularly combat-focused when she does... as long as we don't go outside the walls until we have some solution planned for "What do you do if your fellow researchers try to gank you at the end of an expedition, and for whatever reason your minions are not available?"
Hey - I can be convinced by sufficiently compelling arguments. That doesn't mean that there's nothing there, though.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I personally don't feel that we need to keep to only bio for all our tech our science genius applies to all science. Getting other science up to usefulness isn't that big a commitment. And making a machinal body army or ray gun just feels easier then making a bio one. Of course I am all for giving ourself the super solider treatment.
- Location
- Italy
again, if we can stretch the definition of teaching enough, then the illusions can actually be fairly useful.
what's a fight, if not a lesson to our opponents that they made a mistake in choosing to mess with us? And if we use an illusion to distract them, well, that's teaching them not to let illusions distract them while fighting for their lifes...
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Not the point. Yes we can twist to find ways that the illusions are useful. If we got them for free I would certainly take them, but having to spend an action teaching every turn is a constant and never ending cost. Now if we were planned on teaching regularly anyway then it might not be such a great cost, but we aren't so it is.
Sirrocco
Pedantic
So there's two things here.
The first is that it's still not incredibly useful. Like, you can game the system to get a bit of extra showmanship in, but no one's going to be impressed by your use of training illusions when they're so readily available in general. It's basically a matter of playing "look how clever I am" games, and maybe some marginal bonuses to relatively unimportant rolls... and we can more effectively prove how clever we are by actually creating and generating works of genius. Even if we game the system, the gains are still thin.
...and second thing is that the costs aren't thin. First, there's the raw time cost, which is significant. Then there's the attitude cost. It forces Leviathan to care about teaching people. It makes it a part of her life that she can't escape. We've given that tithe to Dr Infinium, because Mad Science really is a fundamental part of the life she wants like that, and that's cool, but teaching simply isn't, and we shouldn't force it to be.
When we have a shot at contracts that are "do thing X, then get benefit Y", we should be trying to cash those in whenever we can unless they're traps for some reason. When it's a thing of "allow yourself to accept permanent change/requirement X, then get benefit Y" it's something we should be seriously skeptical about. We shouldn't just grab them because they're there. We should only take contracts of that form if they fit well into the life we're trying to build already... and Professor Tweed's really doesn't.
Side note: We are setting up to get MD Old Bones' first contract. Being a doctor is less a part of Leviathan's self-identity than being a mad scientist, and MD Old Bones does make a permanent change... but there are differences. First, being a doctor is still a part of what she is and does, and it fits in to her life better. Right now, she's using it as the way to gather resources and maintain contacts. In the future, she may well be using those skills to put augments in her minions and the like. Being a doctor is a lot more integrated into her life than being a teacher is. The second difference is that his requirement only affects the medical domain. It does shape what manner of doctor she is, when she's a doctor, but it's not a particularly onerous shaping, and, critically, it doesn't require that she be a doctor. She can, quite literally, quit any time she likes. The third difference... twice as much weight. At the moment, the difference between two and four matters... and once we have that four, that two is going to matter that much less. Oh, and as a fourth difference... while you're correct that it is possible to game the system so that "create illusory teaching aids" isn't completely useless, "increased emotional resilience" is just a useful benefit overall... especially for someone who's setting for down the paths that we intend to tread.
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Chapter 1: Turn 1.2 Preparations and Beginnings (Week 14)
New
JayTar
Idea briefcase
Chapter 1: Turn 1.2 Preparations and Beginnings (Week 14)
[X] An elderly scientist with frizzy hair working on a strangely out of place bus.
[X] Colorful Kudzu: T1 Biology. Cost: 3, Benefit: Decoration?
[X] Grow Your Own Tree: T1 Biology. Cost: 3, Benefit: Decoration?
[X] Colorful Kudzu: T1 Biology. Cost: 3, Benefit: Decoration?
[X] Grow Your Own Tree: T1 Biology. Cost: 3, Benefit: Decoration?
"Hello. I noticed your interesting choice of vehicle". You don't doubt it is more then it appears, but for a mad scientist form is as much a statement of intent as it is a matter of function.
"Oh yes. The bus and I go way back. Good memories." She smiles wistfully. You think you see subtle signs of life extension on her, but it's less obvious then with Jack.
"I assume you are preparing for the coming expeditions?"
"Indeed! It's a wonderful opportunity. So many interesting sights to see and things to learn!"
"Do you have any open seats then? I'm looking for an expedition team". It's a slight gamble being so open with your intentions, but ultimately a bus is a vehicle designed to carry passengers. You had to assume that choice meant something.
"Oh? Wonderful initiative. Pop quiz. Describe yourself!" Her expressions are frustratingly difficult to read more then vague positivity from. What does she want? What secrets does that smile hide?
You stall for time to think."Well, my name is Leviathan Grimm. I am currently enrolled in Accelerated Biology 201. Doing quite well." Nothing a scientist of her caliber wouldn't be able to learn on her own.
Social knowledge 3 + Rhetoric 3 = 6 dice
6d6 = [6, 6, 4, 4, 1, 4] = 25
DC = ?
6d6 = [6, 6, 4, 4, 1, 4] = 25
DC = ?
"Since my focus is on biology it is less likely I will come into conflict with any other expedition members over discoveries. I can analyze any biology focused problems or issues which the expedition comes across. I have class 3 medical certification, and run an independent clinic through the cascade system. So I can act as a provider for emergency medical care on the expedition. "
"But what about you? Do you burn with curiosity for the unknown?" She stopped smiling. Big danger sign. Need a strong answer. Careful, don't over correct.
"Of course I do. What kind of question is that?"
"Then welcome aboard! Feel free to call me Professor Sinter." Wait, that easy? Is this another test?
"Is there anything else I should be doing Professor Sinter?"
"Oh don't worry I have this well in hand. Just show up back here when it's time. I'm sure you have your own preparations to occupy you. Anything worth daring, is worth preparing!"
You leave slightly confused. If nothing else she was right. You did have preparations to get to.
1 decent dot subtracted for debt payments
Two low dots subtracted for food payments
1 low dot subtracted for lab use expenses
Two low dots subtracted for food payments
1 low dot subtracted for lab use expenses
You have 4 TAP, 9 AP:
1 AP must be spend on "inventing or experimenting". Label the action with: (Experiment).
3 turns remain before the expeditions.
Current assets:
1.43 high dots
1 Basic Habitation Cube.
Repurposed Garage:
-Space: 17/25
-Amenities: Power
-Rooms: Decent Laboratory (16)
-Neuroplasticity enhancer: Gain +1 to learning dice size. (1)
Current expenses:
Debt repayment 3.8 High dots remain - 1 decent dot per turn.
Simple Packaged meals - 2 low dots per turn.
1.43 high dots
1 Basic Habitation Cube.
Repurposed Garage:
-Space: 17/25
-Amenities: Power
-Rooms: Decent Laboratory (16)
-Neuroplasticity enhancer: Gain +1 to learning dice size. (1)
Current expenses:
Debt repayment 3.8 High dots remain - 1 decent dot per turn.
Simple Packaged meals - 2 low dots per turn.
Available trainers:
Jörmungandr Grimm: Can train Organizational knowledge (AI administrator protocols) and Social knowledge (Clandestine Proceedings) along with their respective general skills. Provides +3 dice.
Leader: Can train Combat (Firearms) along with its respective general skills. Provides +2 dice.
University: Can provide +2 to any Scientific or Academic skill for 1 decent dot.
University (Biology) Provides +3/+1 to Science (Biology). 7 turns left.
Old Jack: Can "provide" +1 to Precision, or a random Precision specialty.
Format:
-[] Skill training (Trainer) (Skill or Skill (Specialty)) (x TAP)
Personal:
[] Work: You have a clinic to run now. Pay based on Medicine + Surgery + Pharmacology roll (2 AP)
[] Food: Perhaps you would like to change your diet? Presents diet options. May be modified by your current wealth level. (1 AP)
[] Purchases: Buy something at previously known shops. (Current options: The Clown Club) (1 AP)
-[] (Write In Purchases)
[] Declare a course of study (Skill): Gain access to +3/+1 tutoring for a skill for 10 turns. Expected to spend at least 2 TAP per turn on it and take exam at the end. Cost: 1 high dot. (1 AP)
[] Tag along on a mission. Pay 5+ decent dots. Note: Ability to survive in or avoid combat is highly recommended. (2 AP)
[] Have a confrontation with Angela Bright (3 AP)
-[] Show off your new device.
-[] Some other plan?
Science:
[] Read research papers (Topic): Gain an Effect you can learn. Roll to see how close the effect is to what you specify. The more specific you are the lower the chances. The higher tier the lower the chances. Cost: 1 decent dot (2 AP)
[] Look into publishing. You have original research now, and academic acclaim is needed to open certain doors. (3 AP)
[] Draft a schematic (Write in schematic) (1 AP)
[] Start crafting. Requires lab. (Variable AP, must be at least 30 in total)
[] Start Experimenting. Requires lab. (Write in desired effect) (Finishing AP: Write in) (Variable AP)
Minions:
[] Teach your avian friend a new trick. Rolls Naturalism (Animal Training). Examples: Fetch, Go, Guard, Attack, Speak. (Write in) (1 AP)
[] Recruit more animals to serve you. Rolls Naturalism (Animal Training). (Write in target animal type. Some may require resources or rolls to access) (2 AP)
Social:
[] You are far too dignified to show off your new contract to your brother. That doesn't mean you can't hang out and act smug. (3 AP)
[] Perhaps instead of confronting your rival directly you should gather more information first? Approach your rival in a less confrontational manner and try to figure out what they have been up to. (3 AP)
[] You still see your mercenary associates from time to time, but a more personal visit to see how they are doing might be worth it. It would give you a second shot at deciphering their augmentations too. (3 AP)
Exploration:
[] Explore the city: The city contains many strange wonders. Some are even useful. Go out and find them. (2 AP)
[] Dive deeper: Beneath the city there are countless forgotten places. Some may even contain treasures. Go out and find them (3 AP)
[] You found a strange building containing clown vending machines. Who uses it and why? Investigate it to satisfy your curiosity. (3 AP)
[] Protective equipment. If you are going to be heading into the wastelands you will need at least something basic. Find a shop. (1 AP)
Gods Research. Roll Academics (Gods) to learn more about the god and what contracts they offer:
[] Steve. Annoyingly you still don't know his first contract. Find it. (3 AP)
[] Doctor Infinium. Perhaps you would like to try looking further? You don't think you will get much at your current skill level. (4 AP)
[] MD Old Bones. Perhaps you would like to try looking further? You don't think you will get much at your current skill level. (4 AP)
[] Professor Tweed Perhaps you would like to try looking further? You don't think you will get much at your current skill level. (4 AP)
[] Supplemental Research: Write in. Perhaps there is some other question you want answered? (2 AP)
To contact Gods:
MD Old Bones:
[] Arrange for an assistant. A final line of defense against interruptions. Someone to make sure all your patients arrive on time, and fill any holes in your schedule. (2 AP)
[] Start the marathon. (Consumes all AP until 20 have been spent.)
Professor Tweed:
[] Go looking for a student. (Write in skill/specifics) (3 AP)
[] Teach! (2 AP)
Steve:
[] Look for a hidden place to build in. See if the Under Market has any leads. Likely to cost at least 1 high dot. (2 AP)
[] Look for a hidden place to build in. Go looking yourself. Beneath the city there are countless forgotten places, and that is exactly what you need. (3 AP)
[] Acquire explosives. The Under Market should have something. Likely to cost at least 1 high dot. (2 AP)
[] Acquire explosives. Maybe you can make them yourself? Requires Science (Chemistry). Requires Lab. (? AP)
[] Start building. Requires location. (Write in what you plan to build) (10 AP)
[] Write in. Perhaps there is something else? (?? AP)
Time skip. If your plan for multiple turns is going to be exactly the same you may include the following line in your vote:
-[] Duration of plan: x Turns (Current maximum of 3)
AN: Bleh, this scene fought me. Don't have the time at the moment, but will answer questions when I get back. Loving all the good discussion.
- Location
- Italy
Just a final point in favor of teaching contract, then I'll move on: we DO care about teaching.
We're a biologist mad scientist. We can teach our creations, in addition to teach/tutor for money.
I'm kinda tempted to try to have Angela join us, but she's notjust a friend, she's our RIVAL, so surely she's going to have her own plans.
Slowly it goes up...
Maybe we could consider another loan to get to 5 high dots faster, to buy a better lab? Between our medical job, our outstanding class performance, our organizational knowledge and the fact we want to buy science tools, we might be able to qualify for either another loan, or a subsidy/discount...
We're a biologist mad scientist. We can teach our creations, in addition to teach/tutor for money.
...that's something I didn't think of, and now I feel kinda dub for not picking up on it.
I'm kinda tempted to try to have Angela join us, but she's not
Slowly it goes up...
Maybe we could consider another loan to get to 5 high dots faster, to buy a better lab? Between our medical job, our outstanding class performance, our organizational knowledge and the fact we want to buy science tools, we might be able to qualify for either another loan, or a subsidy/discount...
Or go buy explosives to reverse engineer and then use the result as base for integrating explosives into lifeforms?
Lets do it.
Whenever we reach an obstacle, we can have a mini competition who solves the problem!
Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer.