GIven the spoilers, particularly their last sentence, I think it's a safe bet that Taylor can't exactly be considered as human anymore. Whether she's inhumanly sane or inhumanly insane remains to be seen.
If the power can be turned off, I guess that condition could change, though.
Pretty weird to dump all your charges into the power when you could have made it do exactly what you wanted for cheap. If you keep on giving Taylor powers you can't control, then your chances of escaping are going to decrease, especially if any of them have a thinker component.
Is there any reason making a power to make a body you can inhabit isn't an option?
Watched! Transistor is fun, and Taylor is the Munchkin Queen. Hopefully Ef and Taylor will become buddies instead of essentially fighting each other for dominance/separation.
Watched! Transistor is fun, and Taylor is the Munchkin Queen. Hopefully Ef and Taylor will become buddies instead of essentially fighting each other for dominance/separation.
Eh Taylor probably wouldn't protest against Endfall leaving her as long as it made her enough powers first, perhapt with a weak version of power manipulation that can be made stronger slowly by pumping what little charge it generates into improving itself, Power manipulation can make any power, no reason why a copy of itself would be the exception.
If my luck reads that bad, I feel like I'm doing something right, so thank you. Attempting to write an SI with Godmode Sue powers without falling into that same territory is interesting.
If Taylor has gone insane,
writing tens of thousands words of her being insane would be just a stupid waste of an excellent character. I try to refrain from being stupid.
Given the spoilers, particularly their last sentence, I think it's a safe bet that Taylor can't exactly be considered as human anymore. Whether she's inhumanly sane or inhumanly insane remains to be seen.
If the power can be turned off, I guess that condition could change, though.
Power descriptions aren't actually a spoiler, just a way of keeping that text out of the main flow for people who don't want my executive summary. That said, a Zero Surface Intellect is a way of describing a mind's failure modes, not its hardware, or nature. In worm, both humans and dolphins are n-Surface, for example.
As implied in the chapter, If Taylor doesn't come out of it eventually, it's within Ef's power to remove it.
Pretty weird to dump all your charges into the power when you could have made it do exactly what you wanted for cheap. If you keep on giving Taylor powers you can't control, then your chances of escaping are going to decrease, especially if any of them have a thinker component.
Is there any reason making a power to make a body you can inhabit isn't an option?
I tend to assume that I'm living in a worst-case scenario (the one that fits the evidence); in this case, that manifested itself as Ef burning out all the charges because she doesn't know how refills work. Does she accumulate charges without end? Does she only get a refill to a certain fixed amount? The less desirable of the two is the latter, so she'll continue acting like that alternative is the correct one until she has a chance to properly test it.
Ef can control the power by taking it away; that's always within the domain of PM, and note that, unlike actually making powers without consent, Ef can think about it. In the sense of "controlling the power directly" at present, Ef doesn't even know if that can be done without introducing a stipulation that she can control the power, which she'd need to get Taylor's consent for. Chances of that? Small (but steadily rising).
The reason why Ef didn't go for a body this segment is the consent rule. Even though she can't think about it being odd that she needs to ask for permission to make a power, she didn't expect high probability that a power just for her, which gave her total independence was going to go down well at that particular moment. That sort of altruism is best extracted when everyone is safe, in a good mood, and preferably in your debt.
Watched! Transistor is fun, and Taylor is the Munchkin Queen. Hopefully Ef and Taylor will become buddies instead of essentially fighting each other for dominance/separation.
Eh Taylor probably wouldn't protest against Endfall leaving her as long as it made her enough powers first, perhapt with a weak version of power manipulation that can be made stronger slowly by pumping what little charge it generates into improving itself, Power manipulation can make any power, no reason why a copy of itself would be the exception.
The first bit is true in certain circumstances. Your speculation... My interpretation of Power Manipulation is non-recursive. "A system cannot contain a copy of itself," essentially. Taylor could get a shadow of PM as a separate power, though, which Ef could certainly sell as the real deal through careful wording.
The first bit is true in certain circumstances. Your speculation... My interpretation of Power Manipulation is non-recursive. "A system cannot contain a copy of itself," essentially. Taylor could get a shadow of PM as a separate power, though, which Ef could certainly sell as the real deal through careful wording.
.
Maybe you can't make a perfect copy of power manipulation, but you should be able to make a lesser version that's still more than enough for it to make no difference, as long as Taylor don't want to skip world to some very high end place.
I think that it would be possible, if difficult, to make something like Eidolon's or Othala's power, but creating a power capable of creating a power capable of creating a power etc al. wouldn't work. maybe you could spend a month of charges to create a power to create more powers, but that power wouldn't be powerful enough to create a power to create more powers unless you add more charges to the power-creating power.
Maybe you can't make a perfect copy of power manipulation, but you should be able to make a lesser version that's still more than enough for it to make no difference, as long as Taylor don't want to skip world to some very high end place.
Yep. As I said, "a shadow of PM". Same shape of power, but none of the depth; and if she tried to give PM to someone else, they'd get a shadow of a shadow, and so forth.
I think that it would be possible, if difficult, to make something like Eidolon's or Othala's power, but creating a power capable of creating a power capable of creating a power etc al. wouldn't work. maybe you could spend a month of charges to create a power to create more powers, but that power wouldn't be powerful enough to create a power to create more powers unless you add more charges to the power-creating power.
Power descriptions aren't actually a spoiler, just a way of keeping that text out of the main flow for people who don't want my executive summary. That said, a Zero Surface Intellect is a way of describing a mind's failure modes, not its hardware, or nature. In worm, both humans and dolphins are n-Surface, for example.
Oh. My interpretation of Zero Surface Intellect was 'inter-neuron communication time is reduced to 0; ergo, all trains of thought not bottlenecked by the need for feedback from external processes or neural fatigue complete in 0 time.' (as a consequence of having no surface area)
Which is ridiculously OP (and also has odd implications for perception of subjective time, not to mention brain topology), but hey, CYOA.
I'd like to point out one thing about Power Manipulation that people tend to forget: it is possible to make it self feeding.
What I mean by this is simple, power manipulation states that it can boost shardless powers, so why not apply that power to PM? It would grow with every charge placed on it, thus eliminating the hard limit it starts off with(this means instead of 5 charges or 10 through Limit Shattering perk, PM can easily have infinite ability to build powers).
This is, of course, even more OP than any writer wants to make without adding in limits like inability to use powers themselves but can give them to others(the Othala route as I like to call it), apathy to world-ending scenario(the Lung route in which even if the world ended you would still be alive to move on), or the person is an OP idiot who can only operate as a blunt force(the Nilbog route, or to be more caustic of anime characters; the Naruto/[One Piece is full of these]/Natsu/etc route. Sad thing is that I like those characters as they have redeeming qualities that make the character deeper over time), a good example of the last would be the Bright Rider who is incidentally another PM SI.
I prefer the harmless food stand/Baker/dissert salesman(cause I'm a guy, thus my self insert would be a guy to prevent being called a pervert) would offers customers special meals or fruits with powers embedded in them(so that when they eat it they gain powers). I normally would make it inadvisable for someone to attempt subversion or elimination via an immunity power(the whole make this area neutral ground or have hostile actions simply phase through the anything within the store, including people), though it tends to come with the whole equal selling rights for all who want to be or already are capes.
Makes things crazy, doesn't it?
Anyhow, I am more curious as to what Taylor's reaction will be like after Ef finally is forced to turn off her power. That should mean more restrictions from Taylor in the future at least with a possible partnership going on.
Oh. My interpretation of Zero Surface Intellect was 'inter-neuron communication time is reduced to 0; ergo, all trains of thought not bottlenecked by the need for feedback from external processes or neural fatigue complete in 0 time.' (as a consequence of having no surface area)
Which is ridiculously OP (and also has odd implications for perception of subjective time, not to mention brain topology), but hey, CYOA.
That's actually a really interesting concept. Modelling it, I think what might happen (if taken literally) is the total cessation of conscious thought (as humanly recognizable) at a minimum. If all thoughts complete instantly, all thoughts complete simultaneously, there is no coherent sequence and as such you live not in time, but in simultaneity with a parallel sequential time axis that may be observed.
I imagine that that might be something like how the PtV shard sees the world, though unlike a human it has senses that can see enough to construct its plans.
Fortunately, this is covered by nonrecursivity, so I don't have to invent anything new to deal with it. PM as used in this story could power other instances of PM, but could not power itself. Ouroboros.
This is, of course, even more OP than any writer wants to make without adding in limits like inability to use powers themselves but can give them to others(the Othala route as I like to call it), apathy to world-ending scenario(the Lung route in which even if the world ended you would still be alive to move on), or the person is an OP idiot who can only operate as a blunt force(the Nilbog route, or to be more caustic of anime characters; the Naruto/[One Piece is full of these]/Natsu/etc route. Sad thing is that I like those characters as they have redeeming qualities that make the character deeper over time), a good example of the last would be the Bright Rider who is incidentally another PM SI.
I prefer the harmless food stand/Baker/dissert salesman(cause I'm a guy, thus my self insert would be a guy to prevent being called a pervert) would offers customers special meals or fruits with powers embedded in them(so that when they eat it they gain powers). I normally would make it inadvisable for someone to attempt subversion or elimination via an immunity power(the whole make this area neutral ground or have hostile actions simply phase through the anything within the store, including people), though it tends to come with the whole equal selling rights for all who want to be or already are capes.
Pretty, yeah. That setup would cause interesting times in the Chinese sense, although with the stipulation that these are used with fully recursive PM, not for very long.
In a story like this, Ef would free herself, set up a false identity, feed the feedback loop, wait several months until PM was accumulating in the range of hundreds of charges a day, then dump all of them into a power that subtly makes things turn out for the best by directly messing with causality, never revealing herself.
Which is a really boring story, unfortunately. But I wouldn't be interested in the world I'm living on knowing that they have an arbitrarily powerful inhabitant. Too much hassle when I can do just as much good in the background. So in that sense, I suppose I have the same preference as you do.
Pretty, yeah. That setup would cause interesting times in the Chinese sense, although with the stipulation that these are used with fully recursive PM, not for very long.
In a story like this, Ef would free herself, set up a false identity, feed the feedback loop, wait several months until PM was accumulating in the range of hundreds of charges a day, then dump all of them into a power that subtly makes things turn out for the best by directly messing with causality, never revealing herself.
Which is a really boring story, unfortunately. But I wouldn't be interested in the world I'm living on knowing that they have an arbitrarily powerful inhabitant. Too much hassle when I can do just as much good in the background. So in that sense, I suppose I have the same preference as you do.
Heh. Basically how it's inevitably going to turn out with Recursive PM and anyone with both sense and long term planning skills.
That being said, I can recall a fun idea about using PM to make a power that transfers PM to another, then tossing PM to Taylor and letting her sort it out. Was going to be a little three part story of Lisa getting 'what the hell happened?' from the now 'retired' original PM user. IIRC the title was 'Evading Responsability' or some such.
But to stick on topic properly, Ef and Taylor clearly have their work cut out for them and I await seeing how things proceed.
Was interesting to see Ef's perspective on Taylor in Tinker Fugue state though.
That's actually a really interesting concept. Modelling it, I think what might happen (if taken literally) is the total cessation of conscious thought (as humanly recognizable) at a minimum. If all thoughts complete instantly, all thoughts complete simultaneously, there is no coherent sequence and as such you live not in time, but in simultaneity with a parallel sequential time axis that may be observed.
Yes. Though I think you neglect neural fatigue a little in that picture..
I included neural fatigue explicitly earlier because I realized that it could actually be THE major bottleneck in a brain with 0 surface area. AFAICS, Burnout on a particular subject probably can and would be subjectively instant. A 'Working Day' for such a mind might be measured in number of topics covered, and its owner might appear to spend 95% of the day sleeping.)
Fortunately, this is covered by nonrecursivity, so I don't have to invent anything new to deal with it. PM as used in this story could power other instances of PM, but could not power itself. Ouroboros.
The obvious workaround for that is to create a Thinker power dedicated to optimizing PM charge usages, since that would be a) generic, not explicitly dedicated to this particular PM, and b)iterative, not recursive. I can understand why no CYOA fic I've read does this (it's kind of boring and eliminates interesting mistakes for the protagonist to make) but it would be an obvious choice -- especially since even a really weak version of it could be a huge advantage over time.
Is that what it was? I could be at odds with the rest of the community here, but I've always assumed that Tinkers understood what they built, but not the deeper implications of those designs, this being why they couldn't translate their tech down.
Yes. Though I think you neglect neural fatigue a little in that picture..
I included neural fatigue explicitly earlier because I realized that it could actually be THE major bottleneck in a brain with 0 surface area. AFAICS, Burnout on a particular subject probably can and would be subjectively instant. A 'Working Day' for such a mind might be measured in number of topics covered, and its owner might appear to spend 95% of the day sleeping.)
I missed that, somehow. You make a good point in the framework of a mind that has instant communication time, but still uses otherwise normal neurons. I was thinking in the framework of a mind based on some exotic substrate given that a mind with zero surface area also has zero volume (I think? Are there exotic mathematical objects that have volume without surface area? I haven't heard of any, but I suppose closed 1D fractal curves that vary in 3-space might be able to cheat there through their hausdorff dimension.) and thus shouldn't be using material neurons to think.
Still, this is a fascinating concept for a parahuman ability. If I have cause to, do you mind if I use your idea?
The obvious workaround for that is to create a Thinker power dedicated to optimizing PM charge usages ... I can understand why no CYOA fic I've read does this (it's kind of boring and eliminates interesting mistakes for the protagonist to make)
Actually, that's not it. Assuming you mean a power to understand the best possible use of a charge (since PM will always return the most efficient possible version of a power, a power reduplicating this function is of no worth), if I thought I could write such a power, Ef would use it, but the bottom line is that the best Ef or any other character can come up with is the best that I, as the writer, can come up with. In effect, all that power would do would make me have to portray myself as less intelligent than I am so I could emulate deeper insight than the stupid me is capable of.
And frankly, there's something distasteful about writing someone who is nominally yourself as an idiot.
I missed that, somehow. You make a good point in the framework of a mind that has instant communication time, but still uses otherwise normal neurons. I was thinking in the framework of a mind based on some exotic substrate given that a mind with zero surface area also has zero volume (I think? Are there exotic mathematical objects that have volume without surface area? I haven't heard of any, but I suppose closed 1D fractal curves that vary in 3-space might be able to cheat there through their hausdorff dimension.) and thus shouldn't be using material neurons to think.
Yeah, I was explicitly avoiding anything specific, because I wanted my comment to be understandable without specialist knowledge. Basically going for 'ordinary brain + multidimensional networking = hax' (I dunno, maybe it accesses alternate timelines where you already thought through the problem; an interdimensional caching network, heh)
Focusing on ordinary neurons is a way to prevent the power from getting too way-out unrelatable though, now I think about it.
Still, this is a fascinating concept for a parahuman ability. If I have cause to, do you mind if I use your idea?
BY ALL MEANS.
Seriously, if you use that in any way, I'm sure it will be fascinating.
Actually, that's not it. Assuming you mean a power to understand the best possible use of a charge (since PM will always return the most efficient possible version of a power, a power reduplicating this function is of no worth), if I thought I could write such a power, Ef would use it, but the bottom line is that the best Ef or any other character can come up with is the best that I, as the writer, can come up with. In effect, all that power would do would make me have to portray myself as less intelligent than I am so I could emulate deeper insight than the stupid me is capable of.
I'm aware of that problem. I thought that it was generally manageable for moderate differences by thinking a lot more, proportional to the time passing in-story. But it's understandable that you don't necessarily have the time or inclination to do that.
