ASOIAF: The Omniverse's centre

@Lucienz how would playing nomads, such as Jogos Nhai and Dothraki work?
Very difficult almost bordering impossible (in fact I might outright ban it unless someone is super interested in playing them). A few things to remember based on my head canon:
-Dothraki are canon (meaning they're idiots who don't wear armor, don't use siege weapons and don't 'plow the field' because it's their mommy).

You may ask why is it that no one has destroyed them Oh Glorious Wrathful Lucienz? Aren't they a pain?
A. Well...no actually. Unlike the Ironborn they're a very valuable part of the Essos economy:
-The Dothraki are an unpaid source of labor (Khals pay their followers in whatever loot they manage to get their hands on) and produce huge amounts of cheap slaves.
-Bonus points: They can travel through Free City territory to catch escaped slaves that no one else would be able to since no Free City would allow a rival Free City to chase escaped slaves with small bands of troops through their territory.
-In short, destroy the Dothraki and the economy of nearly all the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay is going to take a hit (and those players will likely be very very mad).

B. Yes, the Dothraki say it's "tribute" but honestly it's really just trade. Free City gives Dothraki horde a "gift of gold" and gets a "gift of these lamb people slaves" in return.

C. This also means that the Dothraki survive because the Free Cities want them to survive. If the Dothraki ever started trying to sack Free cities (as opposed to Sarnor remnants and the useless lambs), expect the Free Cities to get very paranoid very fast seeing as they know how Essaria and Sarnor fell.
-Expect them to militarize very quickly (also Qohor is blocked by a nice forest which generally is very hard terrain for horsemen to move through unless of course they're happily letting you go through that Valyrian road because you have the new slaves this year *wink wink*).

What would a Dothraki player have to do?
1. Unite the hordes (very difficult but honestly it's such a hard campaign I'd likely allow the first character a player makes to get a big "bonus" to his war/fighting stats; I'd let you start off with Khal Drogo in this scenario who is very competent and does show vague reformist tendencies in his willingness to let Danaerys claim all the slaves she sees as her own)
2. Change the culture (get fricken armor and reform that stupid religion so you can follow the path of the Mongols)
3. Somehow avoid convincing the Free Cities you're a threat and still keep the slave trade humming happily for everyone.
4. Even if you do manage this feat of genius, the Dothraki in Canon don't believe in inheritance and obeying a "child Khal" so if you have more than one kid expect any empire you have to splinter upon your death into multiple NPC factions (although you can keep the strongest son).
-Also if you happen to die while you only have a child heir (game over, rival Khals almost certainly kill it since it's their way).

Jogos Nhoi, much less hard but keep in mind this is still Yi Ti you're looking at it. Enormous amounts of resources, very bloody border Yi Ti Governors who literally have devoted their lives to killing you and can recognize your tactics.
-And again, unlike the Mongols, the Jogos Nhoi have a religion and are thus much less capable of just assimilating into Yi Ti and creating a new dynasty.
 
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Very difficult almost bordering impossible (in fact I might outright ban it unless someone is super interested in playing them). A few things to remember based on my head canon:
-Dothraki are canon (meaning they're idiots who don't wear armor, don't use siege weapons and don't 'plow the field' because it's their mommy).

You may ask why is it that no one has destroyed them Oh Glorious Wrathful Lucienz? Aren't they a pain?
A. Well...no actually. Unlike the Ironborn they're a very valuable part of the Essos economy:
-The Dothraki are an unpaid source of labor (Khals pay their followers in whatever loot they manage to get their hands on) and produce huge amounts of cheap slaves.
-Bonus points: They can travel through Free City territory to catch escaped slaves that no one else would be able to since no Free City would allow a rival Free City to chase escaped slaves with small bands of troops through their territory.
-In short, destroy the Dothraki and the economy of nearly all the Free Cities and Slaver's Bay is going to take a hit (and those players will likely be very very mad).

B. Yes, the Dothraki say it's "tribute" but honestly it's really just trade. Free City gives Dothraki horde a "gift of gold" and gets a "gift of these lamb people slaves" in return.

C. This also means that the Dothraki survive because the Free Cities want them to survive. If the Dothraki ever started trying to sack Free cities (as opposed to Sarnor remnants and the useless lambs), expect the Free Cities to get very paranoid very fast seeing as they know how Essaria and Sarnor fell.
-Expect them to militarize very quickly (also Qohor is blocked by a nice forest which generally is very hard terrain for horsemen to move through unless of course they're happily letting you go through that Valyrian road because you have the new slaves this year *wink wink*).

What would a Dothraki player have to do?
1. Unite the hordes (very difficult but honestly it's such a hard campaign I'd likely allow the first character a player makes to get a big "bonus" to his war/fighting stats; I'd let you start off with Khal Drogo in this scenario who is very competent and does show vague reformist tendencies in his willingness to let Danaerys claim all the slaves she sees as her own)
2. Change the culture (get fricken armor and reform that stupid religion so you can follow the path of the Mongols)
3. Somehow avoid convincing the Free Cities you're a threat and still keep the slave trade humming happily for everyone.
4. Even if you do manage this feat of genius, the Dothraki in Canon don't believe in inheritance and obeying a "child Khal" so if you have more than one kid expect any empire you have to splinter upon your death into multiple NPC factions (although you can keep the strongest son).
-Also if you happen to die while you only have a child heir (game over, rival Khals almost certainly kill it since it's their way).

Jogos Nhoi, much less hard but keep in mind this is still Yi Ti you're looking at it. Enormous amounts of resources, very bloody border Yi Ti Governors who literally have devoted their lives to killing you and can recognize your tactics.
-And again, unlike the Mongols, the Jogos Nhoi have a religion and are thus much less capable of just assimilating into Yi Ti and creating a new dynasty.

Ah, very interesting and makes sense. I am looking at far eastern Essos for where I might try my hand at playing, so a Jogos Nhai or Yi Ti faction I would be very interested in.

I look forward to this game!
 
From the Seven Kingdoms Mod:

The graphics aren't the best that they could be, since I am playing on low resolution and the lowest graphics to maximize performance, so it can look a lot better than this. This is from a game that I just played 20 minutes ago.

Tywin Lannister

Robb Stark

Lots of duels and Lannister cavalry on the background.

My point, is that we will never run out of images for war reports in the future. ;)
 
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My point, is that we will never run out of images for war reports in the future. ;)
I'm probably going to need a co-mod somewhere who would enjoy using those pictures. I don't really write flowery Turn Reports. :rofl:
-I build systems, not novels.

Or as I told one player:
Volantis: "So some of my men got infected with the Grey Plague when I sent ships through the Sorrows"
Me: "Uh huh."

Volantis: "That's it?"
Me: "Imagine the shadowy night, etc etc etc. Imagine the dark strange fog taste of the Sorrows. Imagine several mutants leaping on ships dramatically and the screams of your men."

"In short use your imagination. Your men have 200 men they know were infected, how many are hiding out of fear of being discriminated against are unkno- Oh wait, you have Admiral Raenreos leading the fleet, your subordinate is competent enough that he doesn't require your hand holding and has already ordered everyone stripped naked and checked. 240 people are infected"
-Admiral Raenreos suggests: "F***ING TOSS THEM OVERBOARD"
-Admiral Dornaris agrees:
-Captain Aenyx of the 3rd Fleet: "Says they should be checked and then their families are contacted."

Volantis: "Just do what Raenreos sugge- Wait, who was infected?"
Me: "Clever, the report doesn't say it just says 240." [Are you really going to delay your decision to send them a messaage, no raven technology so expect it to take longer?"]
Volantis: "Build a camp a mile away, isolate the infected there and drop food into their location."

*Next turn*
Me: "Admiral Raenreos's return message contains a list, conveniently one of the infected includes Captain Goneneos."
Volantis: "The guy whose father is his political rival in the senate and spoke out against lowering taxes on wine because of the recent drought?"

Me: "Yes, Admiral Raenreos is truly saddened, but admits he was unable to protect him."
Volantis: "...Whatever, just take f***ing Ar Noy. I can't be bothered to babysit my +5 Admiral."

Me: "HEY! NO LOOKING AT MY CHARTS! He could be a really crappy -2 Admiral who just BSs really well!" :mad:
 
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I'm probably going to need a co-mod somewhere who would enjoy using those pictures. I don't really write flowery Turn Reports. :rofl:
-I build systems, not novels.

Or as I told one player:
Volantis: "So some of my men got infected with the Grey Plague when I sent ships through the Sorrows"
Me: "Uh huh."

Volantis: "That's it?"
Me: "Imagine the shadowy night, etc etc etc. Imagine the dark strange fog taste of the Sorrows. Imagine several mutants leaping on ships dramatically and the screams of your men."

"In short use your imagination. Your men have 200 men they know were infected, how many are hiding out of fear of being discriminated against are unkno- Oh wait, you have Admiral Raenreos leading the fleet, your subordinate is competent enough that he doesn't require your hand holding and has already ordered everyone stripped nake and checked. 240 people are infected"
-Admiral Raenreos suggests: "F***ING TOSS THEM OVERBOARD"
-Admiral Dornaris agrees:
-Captain Aenyx of the 3rd Fleet: "Says they should be checked and then their families are contacted."

Volantis: "Just do what Raenreos sugge- Wait, who was infected?"
Me: "Clever, the report doesn't say it just says 240." [Are you really going to delay your decision to send them a messaage, no raven technology so expect it to take longer?"]
Volantis: "Build a camp a mile away, isolate the infected there and drop food into their location."

*Next turn*
Me: "Admiral Raenreos's return message contains a list, conveniently one of the infected includes Captain Goneneos."
Volantis: "The guy whose father is his political rival in the senate and spoke out against lowering taxes on wine because of the recent drought?"

Me: "Yes, Admiral Raenreos is truly saddened, but admits he was unable to protect him."
Volantis: "...Whatever, just take f***ing Ar Noy. I can't be bothered to babysit my +5 Admiral."

Me: "HEY! NO LOOKING AT MY CHARTS! He could be a really crappy -2 Admiral who just BSs really well!" :mad:
Unless its sci-fi, I am not qualified to mod anything. Though you could just give me the results in bullet points, and I'll turn it flowery on command.

Or you could just give me the scenario, and I'll get you some pictures and stuff.

Anyways, I tried to get a balance on my Star Wars game. Tried to keep stuff consistent across the board, as well as keeping track of every player's military and infrastructure, and all of their projects. Rolls helped a lot, but I got burned out in the end.
 
Anyways, I tried to get a balance on my Star Wars game. Tried to keep stuff consistent across the board, as well as keeping track of every player's military and infrastructure, and all of their projects. Rolls helped a lot, but I got burned out in the end.
I hear you. Star Wars would make my head spin. I actually prefer low-tech scenarios, my favorite game that I GMed was an Imperial China game (with the twelve players being brothers each with their own power base and all of them trying to suck up to the Emperor in order to be named heir). The lower the tech of the world the more realistic it is to just tell players, "You don't know."

House Lannister: "Whose loyal to me?"
Me: "You don't know. Are you asking who seems to praise you the most? That you do know."

House Targaryen: "What do people say about House Arryn?"
Me: "Who are you asking? Are you just telling your guardsmen to go to bars on their free time and ask the smallfolks there?"

House Targaryen: "Yeah sure."
Me: "They say he is the very model of chivalry and is known for his intense loyalty to the throne, unfortunately apparently House Grafton has consistently made snide remarks against the Iron Throne."
-House Arryn was using his friendship with Braavos to have Braavosi merchants (trading superpower of the west) spread rumors about this throughout King's Landing.

Yi Ti: "Why are these f***ing Dothraki migrating East."
Me: "You don't know."
-It's because you've scared everyone to the point that Samyriana is literally allowing Dothraki through their territory, Slaver's Bay is giving gifts to young Khals to "expand the Dothraki sea" to the east, the Braavos player has begun paying off the pirates of the Basilisk Island to harass you, [and] the Lys player has managed to sneak three of their slaves into your Imperial Harem.
-Uh also, one of those spy concubines just gave birth to a +5 Mil, +4 Adm, +5 Dip child...so uh... Family drama will ensue since I'm going to assume you're going to want this kid as your heir when he finally turns 18 and I tell you his rough stats [But you don't need to know that for now].
 
It says something about Maesters that Luwin was willing to serve Theon even after he murdered the children Luwin had delivered and raised and Theon basically trusted Luwin to give good advice and gave it serious consideration. Maesters are sworn to castes not families though some do keep old loyalties or are killed as a precaution others seem to take their vows seriously.

Of course they are still limited by being human beings in that its the high lords' sons who rise high and get prestigious positions and advance faster (though a point is made to consider various lowborns first for the sake of meritocracy) but they never fall to the same extent as the KG.

Unfortunately they lack the awesome quote from Barristan that could well have been said by Jaime.

"Some had been heroes, some weaklings, knaves, or cravens. Most were only men-quicker and stronger than most, more skilled with sword and shield, but still prey to pride, ambition, lust, love, anger, jealousy, greed for gold, hunger for power, and all the other failings that afflicted lesser mortals. The best of them overcame their flaws, did their duty, and died with their swords in their hands. The worst ... The worst were those who played the game of thrones."
 
Some more pictures. This time I made it to the highest resolution and medium graphics. I really need to upgrade my laptop sometime soonish. The sacrificed some framerate. Still playable though.

Still need to figure out how to access the battle replays for better capture tools. It crashes as soon as it loads, so I can only capture pictures while playing. It's a bit of a challange.


Rivermen marching


The game also has naval battles. And special navy units like House Manderly marines and stuff. Doing naval invasions and stuff.
 
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So by the looks of it we will be using stats for characters in this game?
I will be, you will almost certainly never know however (because seriously how would you ever really know how good your super special perfect child is). :V
-Note: You may get a sense if you start hearing rumors that your son is fighting like "the warrior" himself but I'll never tell you what the actual number is.

I don't believe in luck so I generally don't use rolls and your Plan is judged by whether I think you would actually succeed or not. The (stats) are basically a crutch for players and only come into play when they're faced with a situation that wasn't written in the plan:
Ex. A very competent administrator could be told to build that canal and might not only do it wonderfully. He might also realize there's an error in your turn plan and warn you that if you build the canal in the way you've listed you're going to poison the trident with salt water and as a result he fixed your error for you.
-An incompetent one might consistently goes over budget despite telling you that he thinks it would have cost [200,000 gold dragons] (like the federal government).

Unfortunately for you, you'll never really know what the stats of your characters and vassals are (most are average, they'll give good advice and bad advice if you ask them). You might be able to guess their stats based on the fact that this guy gives me consistently good advice and warnings but keep in mind that these characters have their own motivations. Is Admiral Raenreos telling you this because it's the right thing to do or because he has his own family advantages to think of?
-Your children will be treated the same way, depending on their stats, I might temporarily take them under control so they can make a comment like
-"Father... I know you want to invade Dorne but perhaps we should first train light cavalry since our knights will be useless and I'm not even sure if our horses know how to run on sand dunes that can change in the wind."
-Otherwise, I'll tend towards silence and let players make their own mistakes so don't bother asking me what I think of a plan [You can only ask me, what does [Insert NPC] think of it] and the answer is very likely to change based on things like whether he likes you."
Of course they are still limited by being human beings in that its the high lords' sons who rise high and get prestigious positions and advance faster (though a point is made to consider various lowborns first for the sake of meritocracy) but they never fall to the same extent as the KG.
Maesters: "It's true, even our noble order isn't completely meritocratic... The Grand Maester is the greatest of positions in our Order which is why we considered the Tyrell candidate first. We certainly don't consider it a poison pill that has no administrative power like the Archmaesters who interestingly enough consist of individuals like Perestan, Ryam and Marwyn... None of whom are nobles and happen to control who gets promoted or not..." *COUGH COUGH* :drevil:
 
Maesters: "It's true, even our noble order isn't completely meritocratic... The Grand Maester is the greatest of positions in our Order which is why we considered the Tyrell candidate first. We certainly don't consider it a poison pill that has no administrative power like the Archmaesters who interestingly enough consist of individuals like Perestan, Ryam and Marwyn... None of whom are nobles and happen to control who gets promoted or not..." *COUGH COUGH* :drevil:
OTOH the Grandmaester oversees the King's health, his children's health, knows most of his secrets, reads and sends on his letters and rubs shoulders with the highest Lords of the realm and is probably the only senior maester Lords and smallfolk alike know. We know for a fact that he sends detailed reports on the Royal family and affairs of interest to Oldtown so if nothing else he's a trusted ambassador and spy and if he ever decided to go against the stiffling hand of the Archmaesters then he's uniquely placed to spill their dirty secrets to the King who can do a hell of a lot of damage.

What if someone was to tell the Greens and the Blacks that the Maesters were planning to kill off their dragons for example? Oldtown would be burned to the ground and ravens sent to every castle warning the maesters there to behave or be outlawed. (these are the guys who were trying to murder each other as toddlers and have the blood of madmen and tyrants in them and are proud of it) the grandmaester to an extent holds the fate of the entire order in his hands.

Against this you have the Archmaesters one of whom is basically slandered as a madman and has to hide his identity and at least one more is basically senile but kept in place and others are regarded as gutless or fools by their underlings who speak of them as such in very public places. Maybe on paper an Archmaester is a powerful position but its also a rather large body filled with academics some of whom have held their positions for decades. Frankly the ones that actually matter are probably countable on one hand out of dozens (since it seems each one only teaches one subject and there are many, many links in a maester's chain so even if some specialise in more than one discipline there must be plenty of them.

You've spent time in Academia would you consider a body made up out of every lecturer and renowned scholar to be the most effective or focused body?
 
OTOH these are the free cities. They like fighting each other and think nothing of mercenaries being the majority of their armies regardless of effectiveness. There is absolutely nothing stopping a Khal with someone like Daenerys advising them from dining with some sellsword captains and giving them "gifts" as noble warriors and these warriors deciding that they cannot fight a man so generous so deserting or outright changing sides.

The Dothraki could easily take at least one free city in this fashion and if it was say Qohor then they now have all the armour they could ever want and access to the economic heart of Volantis and Norvos in the form of the river that feeds them both with trade and is lined with rich cities that would much rather pay tribute than have to watch their hinterlands burn year after year.

The Dotharki may be crap but they are rich (at least rich enough for bribes) and no one will know their intentions until they are right on top of their target. Hell they could easily take over a city like Pentos by having a khal or two slip an army into the city in the guise of their slaves on the way to a manse and just seize it overnight.

I'd say that any Dothraki Khal who wanted to could make a fair go of taking a free city if he was prepared to be creative simply because they are almost begging to be attacked trusting their defences to those loyal to the highest bidder they spoke to last and depend on a trade network with a few key choke points. Dothraki could last for years just pillaging the hinterlands of cities and no army could breed enough horses to catch them. Essos is too big and the terrain too suited for highly mobile raiding armies being a mix of well connected poorly defended cities and towns that all happen to be very rich and very fertile soil largely held by slaves who are used to changing masters. The free cities could be brought down in a couple of years by any Khal interested in doing so but the Dothraki lack the mindset for this.
 
Maesters: "Yes. In peacetime. In the current time period you're talking about a dwarf recently shipped that guy off to prison and shaved him, he lives in a city that almost went up in flames under Aerys II and then suffered food shortages, a sacking and so forth."

"Expect the position to recover in 50 years but frankly at the current time of war; House Tyrell offered us [Large sacks of money] and we figured why now. The man was hardly incompetent and the Queen was Tyrell. It's not like we were ignoring the political situation."

I mean don't overestimate the Maesters but do keep in mind they've been remarkably good at putting non-noble Grand Maesters in the post when they want to throughout Westeros history. To be honest, as a GM I would have ruled that they purposely let slip that the Tyrell candidate was in the lead because they knew House Lannister would react by reinstating Pycelle (these were "secret" proceedings after all). It's a remarkably meritocratic organization all things considered.
Yes and the Mongols could also conquer China but it's the IF.

If the Dothraki were united.

If they culturally accepted the use of armor was not cowardly (which I admit is stupid yet Canon).

If they got lucky enough to grab a reformist leader who wasn't killed young and immediately watch his horde split.

That's a lot of IFs. It's not impossible but frankly speaking Qohor uses Unsullied, Norvos uses Bearded Priests. All the Free Cities use mercenaries to fight aggressive wars but only Pentos explicitly can't "hire sellswords, make contracts with free companies, or maintain an army."
-In short, most of all the Free Cities are not actually dumb enough to use sellswords to garrison their cities. They use city militias for that.
-The sellswords like in the Italian Renaissance are used for aggressive attacks (mostly because it's damn unpopular to get citizens who can vote killed in a Republic) so if you're rich why not?
 
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Maesters: "Yes. In peacetime. In the current time period you're talking about a guy that a dwarf recently shipped off to prison and unbearded, in a city that almost went up in flames under Aerys II and then suffered food shortages, a sacking and so forth."

"Expect the position to recover in 50 years but frankly at the current time of war; House Tyrell offered us [Large sacks of money] and we figured why now. The man was hardly incompetent and the Queen was Tyrell. It's not like we were ignoring the political situation."

I mean don't overestimate the Maesters but do keep in mind they've been remarkably good at putting non-noble Grand Maesters in the post when they want to throughout Westeros history. To be honest, as a GM I would have ruled that they purposely let slip that the Tyrell candidate was in the lead because they knew House Lannister would react by reinstating Pycelle (these were "secret" proceedings after all). It's a remarkably meritocratic organization all things considered.

Yes and the Mongols could also conquer China but it's the IF.

If the Dothraki were united.

If they culturally accepted the use of armor was not cowardly (which I admit is stupid yet Canon).

If they got lucky enough to grab a reformist leader who wasn't killed young and immediately watch his horde split.

That's a lot of IFs. It's not impossible but frankly speaking Qohor uses Unsullied, Norvos uses Bearded Priests. All the Free Cities use mercenaries to fight aggressive wars but only Pentos explicitly can't "hire sellswords, make contracts with free companies, or maintain an army."
-In short, most of all the Free Cities are not actually dumb enough to use sellswords to garrison their cities. They use city militias for that.
-The sellswords like in the Italian Renaissance are used for aggressive attacks (mostly because it's damn unpopular to get citizens who can vote killed in a Republic) so if you're rich why not?

The Unsullied also lack armour though... and we see other slave cities rely on slave soldiers of dubious quality and freedmen who are considered even worse somehow.

I mean you could interpret the free cities as competent actors but then that requires reading between the lines for the Dothraki as well who we see successfully dominate hundreds of miles of territory with seventy old men, boys and cripples and Drogo's Khalasar take a walled town after fighting a bloody battle outside and control a trade network that basically stretches across the known world.

So from that the lack of armour may be down to the climate (maybe nobody thought of silk and disks or similar measures) or maybe Essos is poor in metal resources because its not just the Dothraki who lack it and it certainly does not impede them and it comes as a surprise when fighting Jorah that he is harder to beat (though he is gravely wounded) so it seems quite possible that armour is an out of context thing in Essos save for sell swords from Westeros who tend to shit themselves and run away or switch sides anyway so are going to be emulated by no one.

We've seen the Dothraki bring down kingdoms and they are allowed to bully various cities and they fight a lot more successfully than anyone else. I don't think the Esssosi are really suited towards actually fighting wars. They just like to play at it and it only takes one run of actual fighting to set their policies and histories for decades, even centuries.
 
OTOH these are the free cities. They like fighting each other and think nothing of mercenaries being the majority of their armies regardless of effectiveness. There is absolutely nothing stopping a Khal with someone like Daenerys advising them from dining with some sellsword captains and giving them "gifts" as noble warriors and these warriors deciding that they cannot fight a man so generous so deserting or outright changing sides.

The Dothraki could easily take at least one free city in this fashion and if it was say Qohor then they now have all the armour they could ever want and access to the economic heart of Volantis and Norvos in the form of the river that feeds them both with trade and is lined with rich cities that would much rather pay tribute than have to watch their hinterlands burn year after year.

The Dotharki may be crap but they are rich (at least rich enough for bribes) and no one will know their intentions until they are right on top of their target. Hell they could easily take over a city like Pentos by having a khal or two slip an army into the city in the guise of their slaves on the way to a manse and just seize it overnight.

I'd say that any Dothraki Khal who wanted to could make a fair go of taking a free city if he was prepared to be creative simply because they are almost begging to be attacked trusting their defences to those loyal to the highest bidder they spoke to last and depend on a trade network with a few key choke points. Dothraki could last for years just pillaging the hinterlands of cities and no army could breed enough horses to catch them. Essos is too big and the terrain too suited for highly mobile raiding armies being a mix of well connected poorly defended cities and towns that all happen to be very rich and very fertile soil largely held by slaves who are used to changing masters. The free cities could be brought down in a couple of years by any Khal interested in doing so but the Dothraki lack the mindset for this.

You're forgetting Qohor will never fall.:rofl:
 
*sees massive walls of text and all kinds of mechanics and stats being laid out above*

I told y'all asses we needed a separate thread
 
I mean you could interpret the free cities as competent actors but then that requires reading between the lines for the Dothraki as well who we see successfully dominate hundreds of miles of territory with seventy old men, boys and cripples and Drogo's Khalasar take a walled town after fighting a bloody battle outside and control a trade network that basically stretches across the known world
Sure except that reading between the lines requires historical parallels and the closest I can view to the Dothraki are the Mediterranean pirates who once dominated the entire sea (during the Roman Republic's height). Was it because the Roman Republic really couldn't deal with these pirates? Clearly not seeing as Pompey destroyed them all in a naval campaign the moment they made the mistake of sacking a Roman town. Why were they allowed to exist? Economics and because there were multiple strands of politics that made them useful to the Republic.

As for the trade network, well yes. They are an important component in Essos trade however there's a bigger reason why they're allowed to hold the territory they do. The most prominent Yi-Ti to Westeros trade route happens to be maritime in nature as well as in the control of Qarth, New Ghis and then Volantis (three powerful states all of whom have a lot of incentive to ensure that a land route from Yi Ti to Qohor never exists).
Qarth: Separated by the Red Waste and can't expand in Dothraki territory anyway.
New Ghis: Hemmed by mountains and rivals with Meereen so they're never going to allow Meereen to get too strong and expand north with border fortresses.
Volantis: Likely trying to but has tons of problems with actually holding this huge slice of territory in the northeast (for other problems that the Volantis player will be made aware of).

But all of them would have a massive freakout if they found out Qohor was actually making enough deals with various Dothraki Khals to make a Yi Ti-Qohor land trade route viable and thus dodging all three. Qarth in particular has an assassin's guild and isn't above knocking off certain Khals and maybe trading certain weapons to Khals who aren't willing to allow Steel Road to ever be used since their entire economic dominance is built on it's lock over the Jade Gate trade route.
So from that the lack of armour may be down to the climate (maybe nobody thought of silk and disks or similar measures) or maybe Essos is poor in metal resources because its not just the Dothraki who lack it and it certainly does not impede them and it comes as a surprise when fighting Jorah that he is harder to beat (though he is gravely wounded) so it seems quite possible that armour is an out of context thing in Essos save for sell swords from Westeros who tend to shit themselves and run away or switch sides anyway so are going to be emulated by no one.
It's really not. Canon Braavos actually exports iron and timber. Norvos and Qohor all have iron resources as well. Volantis interestingly does not, one of the many many factors that keeps them down.
-Armor very much is an Essos thing.
I don't think the Esssosi are really suited towards actually fighting wars. They just like to play at it and it only takes one run of actual fighting to set their policies and histories for decades, even centuries.
I'll be completely honest, this is a pet peeve of mine to view certain areas (Iron Islands, Essos and so forth as simply incompetent), so I'll just outright say this isn't how I intend to mod Essos. Essos has problems and as I told my three Essos players in college, expect it to be an uphill battle but expect to have challenges and rewards that make them as fun to play as Westeros. This is a continent that has successfully and very quickly been able to form coalitions to ensure balance of power whenever need be. It's also an area that historically contained the Rhoynar Empire that raised 250,000 men. Even if I assume that a lot of that was due to culture (women and men both fighting) and enormous amounts of irrigation projects due to Rhoynar water magic, Essos is very much a rich area and underdeveloped area (seeing as Tyrion didn't see anyone settlements along the Rhoyne river). Anyone who chooses a Free City can expect my private missive to them to explain what is particularly problematic for them and what's the major issues they face (why for example is Qohor which raised 30,000 soldiers under Aurion is now such a light-weight?). Similarly, the Dothraki and Iron Islands player would get a missive explaining things as well.

Now what are the general problems an Essos city-state faces?
1. Difficulty of genuine expansion
-If the Essosi "play at war" it's for a very good reason. There's no point in investing in a very strong military when all the Free Cities are sophisticated political actors that are never going to allow the balance of power to shift and put their own independence at risk.
-Volantis knows for a fact that they are never going to be allowed to occupy Lys (the City-state) without causing a counter-coalition to form against them.
-The primary fights are over border territories that come in and out but since you know you'll never be able to permanently knock out a rival without intervention from other Free Cities there's little point in trashing your economy for impermanent gains (most wars are minor and over trade rights and generally limited in scale because actually conquering another Free City is a red line the other Free Cities will react to).
-Does that mean a clever player wouldn't be able to manipulate the balance of power to expand? Of course not, but it's something to consider.

2. Slave Society vs. Society that Just Happens to Have Slaves
-A slave society paints all activity in a certain light and becomes a fixture of the culture. Just like how in Volantis, it's considered "slave-like" to even walk in the streets, Essos has a mobilization problem based on culture.
-The fact that even though Volantis in the books is having a problem with a potential Pro-Danaerys slave revolt and yet they've been unable to create a Freemen Army by sweeping up the Freemen beggars who still consider themselves better then slaves should give a good idea of how much the slave system has made a distinction between:
Manual Labor = Slavery [and]
Intellectual Work (Merchant work) = Freedom

This is an enormous problem to overcome but Free City players have a rich city and the countryside population that is necessary to sustain said city.

3. Republican Government
-This is actually the potentially biggest potential problem hemming the Free Cities in. In short, even if you do manage to convince Freemen to serve in the armies you now have the problem of actually using them.
-Volantis' Tigers fought enormous wars but failed to realize that with each soldier that died, so did their base of support and ended up dooming themselves to centuries of political isolation.
-Similarly, the reason why an Essos Free City Player has to be cautious is because in all likelihood, if they're building up an army, all of those newly paid soldiers are likely going to cast their vote for you and every one of them that dies happens to weaken your political platform.
-This: Is the single biggest reason for the widespread use of mercenaries in Essos. In Westeros, a lord could shove his entire peasant population to their deaths and he will remain lord. In Essos, the clever politician will use his Free City army to garrison territory but would probably weep to see his Pro-Magister Army get decimated in battle [and] since you have the wealth to do otherwise, why not use mercenaries?

Now then, I'm going to have to go offline to finish my work so I won't be able to respond more :rofl:. That said, when I begin the OOC thread I can assure everyone regardless of what faction you choose, you're choosing a political entity that has survived more or less for hundreds of years for a reason. Even the weakest faction such as Lorath has a reason why they haven't been annexed which will be explained in their secret missive.
-The problem with assuming incompetence is simply because in the hands of intelligent players (and I had to deal with many) is that they will automatically exploit weaknesses in GRRM's narrative overly easily.
Ex. if I assume Essos' Free Cities are incompetent, the basic problem is:
1. Why hasn't Dorne expanded Eastward? They could arguably take the Stepstones and/or Tyrosh.
2. Why hasn't the very religious Arryns not taken Andalos? Their literal holy place and ancestral homeland of the Andals.
3. Why hasn't the Iron Throne ever directed it's attention outwards in order to create a release value for landless knights and population issue.

Similarly:
1. Why haven't the Ironborn been exterminated?
2. Why has the Iron Throne never allowed Lord Harroway's Town or Maidenpool to gain a charter? Was House Tully really so incompetent that they never asked? :rolleyes:
 
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Sure except that reading between the lines requires historical parallels and the closest I can view to the Dothraki are the Mediterranean pirates who once dominated the entire sea (during the Roman Republic's height). Was it because the Roman Republic really couldn't deal with these pirates? Clearly not seeing as Pompey destroyed them all in a naval campaign the moment they made the mistake of sacking a Roman town. Why were they allowed to exist? Economics and because there were multiple strands of politics that made them useful to the Republic.

As for the trade network, well yes. They are an important component in Essos trade however there's a bigger reason why they're allowed to hold the territory they do. The most prominent Yi-Ti to Westeros trade route happens to be maritime in nature as well as in the control of Qarth, New Ghis and then Volantis (three powerful states all of whom have a lot of incentive to ensure that a land route from Yi Ti to Qohor never exists).
Qarth: Separated by the Red Waste and can't expand in Dothraki territory anyway.
New Ghis: Hemmed by mountains and rivals with Meereen so they're never going to allow Meereen to get too strong and expand north with border fortresses.
Volantis: Likely trying to but has tons of problems with actually holding this huge slice of territory in the northeast (for other problems that the Volantis player will be made aware of).

But all of them would have a massive freakout if they found out Qohor was actually making enough deals with various Dothraki Khals to make a Yi Ti-Qohor land trade route viable and thus dodging all three. Qarth in particular has an assassin's guild and isn't above knocking off certain Khals and maybe trading certain weapons to Khals who aren't willing to allow Steel Road to ever be used since their entire economic dominance is built on it's lock over the Jade Gate trade route.

It's really not. Canon Braavos actually exports iron and timber. Norvos and Qohor all have iron resources as well. Volantis interestingly does not, one of the many many factors that keeps them down.
-Armor very much is an Essos thing.

I'll be completely honest, this is a pet peeve of mine to view certain areas (Iron Islands, Essos and so forth as simply incompetent), so I'll just outright say this isn't how I intend to mod Essos. Essos has problems and as I told my three Essos players in college, expect it to be an uphill battle but expect to have challenges and rewards that make them as fun to play as Westeros. This is a continent that has successfully and very quickly been able to form coalitions to ensure balance of power whenever need be. It's also an area that historically contained the Rhoynar Empire that raised 250,000 men. Even if I assume that a lot of that was due to culture (women and men both fighting) and enormous amounts of irrigation projects due to Rhoynar water magic, Essos is very much a rich area and underdeveloped area (seeing as Tyrion didn't see anyone settlements along the Rhoyne river). Anyone who chooses a Free City can expect my private missive to them to explain what is particularly problematic for them and what's the major issues they face (why for example is Qohor which raised 30,000 soldiers under Aurion is now such a light-weight?). Similarly, the Dothraki and Iron Islands player would get a missive explaining things as well.

Now what are the general problems an Essos city-state faces?
1. Difficulty of genuine expansion
-If the Essosi "play at war" it's for a very good reason. There's no point in investing in a very strong military when all the Free Cities are sophisticated political actors that are never going to allow the balance of power to shift and put their own independence at risk.
-Volantis knows for a fact that they are never going to be allowed to occupy Lys (the City-state) without causing a counter-coalition to form against them.
-The primary fights are over border territories that come in and out but since you know you'll never be able to permanently knock out a rival without intervention from other Free Cities there's little point in trashing your economy for impermanent gains (most wars are minor and over trade rights and generally limited in scale because actually conquering another Free City is a red line the other Free Cities will react to).
-Does that mean a clever player wouldn't be able to manipulate the balance of power to expand? Of course not, but it's something to consider.

2. Slave Society vs. Society that Just Happens to Have Slaves
-A slave society paints all activity in a certain light and becomes a fixture of the culture. Just like how in Volantis, it's considered "slave-like" to even walk in the streets, Essos has a mobilization problem based on culture.
-The fact that even though Volantis in the books is having a problem with a potential Pro-Danaerys slave revolt and yet they've been unable to create a Freemen Army by sweeping up the Freemen beggars who still consider themselves better then slaves should give a good idea of how much the slave system has made a distinction between:
Manual Labor = Slavery [and]
Intellectual Work (Merchant work) = Freedom

This is an enormous problem to overcome but Free City players have a rich city and the countryside population that is necessary to sustain said city.

3. Republican Government
-This is actually the potentially biggest potential problem hemming the Free Cities in. In short, even if you do manage to convince Freemen to serve in the armies you now have the problem of actually using them.
-Volantis' Tigers fought enormous wars but failed to realize that with each soldier that died, so did their base of support and ended up dooming themselves to centuries of political isolation.
-Similarly, the reason why an Essos Free City Player has to be cautious is because in all likelihood, if they're building up an army, all of those newly paid soldiers are likely going to cast their vote for you and every one of them that dies happens to weaken your political platform.
-This: Is the single biggest reason for the widespread use of mercenaries in Essos. In Westeros, a lord could shove his entire peasant population to their deaths and he will remain lord. In Essos, the clever politician will use his Free City army to garrison territory but would probably weep to see his Pro-Magister Army get decimated in battle [and] since you have the wealth to do otherwise, why not use mercenaries?

Now then, I'm going to have to go offline to finish my work so I won't be able to respond more :rofl:. That said, when I begin the OOC thread I can assure everyone regardless of what faction you choose, you're choosing a political entity that has survived more or less for hundreds of years for a reason. Even the weakest faction such as Lorath has a reason why they haven't been annexed which will be explained in their secret missive.
-The problem with assuming incompetence is simply because in the hands of intelligent players (and I had to deal with many) is that they will automatically exploit weaknesses in GRRM's narrative overly easily.
Ex. if I assume Essos' Free Cities are incompetent, the basic problem is:
1. Why hasn't Dorne expanded Eastward? They could arguably take the Stepstones and/or Tyrosh.
2. Why hasn't the very religious Arryns not taken Andalos? Their literal holy place and ancestral homeland of the Andals.
3. Why hasn't the Iron Throne ever directed it's attention outwards in order to create a release value for landless knights and population issue.

Similarly:
1. Why haven't the Ironborn been exterminated?
2. Why has the Iron Throne never allowed Lord Harroway's Town or Maidenpool to gain a charter? Was House Tully really so incompetent that they never asked? :rolleyes:
I have that same peeve towards the Dothraki being idiots who survive on forbearence. If that was the case someone would have fought them in the past few centuries instead of paying them off if only to make a point and they would not get away with threatening cities like Volantis which even splintered Khalasars do. As a general rule of the thumb if someone can get tribute from you (and tribute is separate from trade otherwise guys like Illyrio would not be so blase about calling it cheaper to pay them to go away than to go to war) and does so for centuries without upset then there is some reason for it.

The Iron Islanders were only seriously threatened with conquest once in their history and that fell apart because the Lannisters lost interest in the project after years of fighting and left their vassal to learn the hard way not to defy them. At every other point in their history they faced either a distracted Reach, a navally helpless North and the Riverlands which were basically a basket case.


In fact on your point of the Tullys you are being unfair to say they are stupid to discourage trade. They are absolutely in the right to assume any change is bad for them. The last few thousand years have literally seen every foreign invader be joined by half the River lords, adding wealth to their coffers (or adding an excuse to rebel by granting the towns independence from their lord) is just asking for another revolt which unlike every other region is more likely to succeed than fail.

The Riverlands are young kingdom that only got their modern borders under one king relatively recently (read race for the Iron Throne) and has a long bloody history of civil war, ursurptions and being invaded from all sides often with help from within. A River King would be well advised to be everyone's friend and uphold the status quo wherever he can because today's friends are tomorrow's enemies if they are not already secretly preparing to betray you today.
 
There's always this assumption that charters are good because they bring trade and trade means cash...but those charters are largely the Lord signing away his powers to the town (as a legal entity) and the local merchant class, definitely not something most Lords are in the business of wanting/doing.

Ex. if I assume Essos' Free Cities are incompetent, the basic problem is:
1. Why hasn't Dorne expanded Eastward? They could arguably take the Stepstones and/or Tyrosh.
2. Why hasn't the very religious Arryns not taken Andalos? Their literal holy place and ancestral homeland of the Andals.
3. Why hasn't the Iron Throne ever directed it's attention outwards in order to create a release value for landless knights and population issue.

Similarly:
1. Why haven't the Ironborn been exterminated?
2. Why has the Iron Throne never allowed Lord Harroway's Town or Maidenpool to gain a charter? Was House Tully really so incompetent that they never asked? :rolleyes:

1. Dorne has no meaningful navy and a limited military more suited to defence than offence;
2. The Arryns aren't religious fanatics, just regular Fot7 practitioners with a heightened self-image, there's nothing that really indicates Andalos is seen as a holy or sacred homeland or holy place;
3. Most of the time the Iron Throne's attention is directed inwards at keeping order and good government internally. The Faith, the Night's Watch, the Citadel and the Free Companies are escape valve enough if overpopulation is ever an issue.

1. Exterminating an entire people is easier said than done.
2. Not in House Tully's interests to cede any more power away.
 
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There's always this assumption that charters are good because they bring trade and trade means cash...but those charters are largely the Lord signing away his powers to the town (as a legal entity) and the local merchant class, definitely not something most Lords are in the business of wanting/doing.
It depends on the wording, I'd say. For instance, Denys Darklyn was under the impression that a town charter for Duskendale would grant it autonomy from the Crown, but would also include House Darklyn in the deal as the lords of Duskendale. It isn't like Stony Sept or Harroway's Town, where there isn't a major lord present. Cities like Duskendale, Lannisport, Oldtown and White Harbor are bound to have "charters", but are clearly under the firm authority of Darklyn/Rykker, Lannister, Hightower and Manderly.
 
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