All Level, No Experience (Worm/Pathfinder Amnesia Quest)

@Sckribe do you mind extending the vote and/or adding a temp threadmark for the new information given? It significantly changes the previously winning vote's considerations and all.

Oh, you're blatantly giving me an excuse? Instead of something else, you're sending it right to me?

I do not mind whatsoever. I don't think the stuff I mentioned is new information, so much as stuff that was already there and just clarified/made obvious. But still, I don't mind at all. And so, it shall be,

*Clap Clap*

The vote is extended by another day!
 
I mean, kniwing Coil he would definetly rather be alive yes so im pretty confident he would atleast want to return.
 
Wait. Uh. @Sckribe , did you take into account Coil's power? Or is this official confirmation that Coil's shard, at least, is unable to predict us? Because if it could have, it would have predicted Coil being there and us killing him and so we'd have attacked in slightly different circumstances.
 
[X] Roll with it. Pretend you intended to do that the entire time if anyone else asks.

Just take over, having to deal with mind controled Coil sounds like work. Talk it out with the mercs then put Undersiders in charge. Not every problem has to be solved with magic.
 
Wait. Uh. @Sckribe , did you take into account Coil's power? Or is this official confirmation that Coil's shard, at least, is unable to predict us?
Everything that ought to have been accounted for has been accounted for. Otherwise, not going to directly confirm/deny anything, on my end, especially with something Iluontar doesn't know.
 
Wait. Uh. @Sckribe , did you take into account Coil's power? Or is this official confirmation that Coil's shard, at least, is unable to predict us? Because if it could have, it would have predicted Coil being there and us killing him and so we'd have attacked in slightly different circumstances.
The thing that most Worm fanfics often fail to portray is that, from the point of view of any other character, Coils' powers are utterly invisible to the point the PRT isn't even 100% sure he's a parahuman. Whether his power actually splits timelines (not canon) or just simulates them (canon) from the POV of other characters it just looks like Coil knew what you were gonna do and is a step ahead, I.E. you show up at his secret base but he's not there, or you get hit by a mercenary hit squad that seems prepared to counter all your moves, even the ones you didn't know you were gonna use. Inwardly it looks pretty amazing but outwardly it doesn't look like anything, it's literally impossible to know if he's using his power or not because for the POV character, they are in the only timeline there is. in other words, if you are not Coil and you see him in front of you, he's there and he can't do anything about that.
 
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The thing that most Worm fanfics often fail to portray is that, from the point of view of any other character, Coils' powers are utterly invisible to the point the PRT isn't even 100% sure he's a parahuman. [*Snip*]
Thank you! Yeah, pretty much, and so far I haven't gone back and written any other POV's. Also, his ability to use said power requires he has some mix of both awareness of something, and an ability to act on that awareness.

Except, what Ilu did was use a power that would, so long as it works, let you see him, thereby (inadvertently) locating the real one, promptly followed by using that Info to teleport in- and even if not stealthed, that was pretty much already end of the line. Normally, Coil's power letting him be semi-in two places at once, lets him practically Mr. Magoo his way into "coincidentally" dodging any traditional ambush, assuming he didn't discover it during the fair amount of time and coordination it might take to set one up.

Except Scry-and-Die is effectively an Ambush without a location, that, at best gives maybe half a minute of warning, assuming you manage to spot the scrying sensor, and that the Ambushers waited until after the Scrying was cast to start buffing up, if they even do so. Otherwise, you either have seconds of warning (if you even know enough to anticipate that a Scrying sensor means "incoming"), or none at all. And even if you do prepare yourself for it soon enough, they'll know that, and can just decide to not teleport in. Except now, you've spent time and possibly resources preparing yourself for a combat that never happened, and you have to stay prepared for as long as that scrying sensor is present, because the second you lower your guard, they can decide that that's the moment to go in, because often, the guy who cast Scrying and who's going to teleport them in, are the same person. A Scry-and-Die ambush isn't "at 5th and main, in the alley, when he walks by at 3", it's at wherever he happens to be, when he isn't prepared for it.

Unless you have some means to counter-Scry-and-Die, the attackers always have the advantage. Except even then, the attackers can probably tell that's what you're doing, and just jump at you anyways, because they wanted a fight the entire time, so even then they still get what they want. Unless you have some measure to block scrying (very high Will save + Fate-Woven Braid (since the attackers can just keep trying until you eventually hit a Nat 1 or fail), or the ubiquitous for a reason Mind Blank), then you cannot escape a Scry-and-Die, at best you can turn it from an ambush to a fight, and delay it. For various D&D villains, who know what magic is, probably have casters on their employ (or are casters themselves), this result is not ideal, but fine.

For Coil, who beyond his mental powers is, a really thin guy in a suit? Death sentence.

Actually, now that I think about it, isn't that a pretty solid reason Cauldron is as capable as it is? Aside from Triumvirate, the Clairvoyant Doormaker Contessa combo is pretty much just a Scry-and-Die. A very effective precog for the Die part rather than a full party/high-level caster, but still.

Anyhow, long post short, yeah Scry-and-Die is almost perfectly suited to hard-countering Coil, and y'all ended up doing so even unaware of his power, both because his power is all-but-impossible to spot without Tattletale-magic/Coil outright revealing it himself, and because Scry-and-Die, is just a really effective tactic.
 
Anyhow, long post short, yeah Scry-and-Die is almost perfectly suited to hard-countering Coil, and y'all ended up doing so even unaware of his power, both because his power is all-but-impossible to spot without Tattletale-magic/Coil outright revealing it himself, and because Scry-and-Die, is just a really effective tactic.
No, I know that Scry-and-Die is super effective. But unless Ilu was perfectly synchronized in both timelines, acting at exactly the same pace with not a single moment of delay, one simulated version would have attacked before the other simulated version (since Coil's power actually makes two simulations and then puppets him through the one that Coil chooses after seeing both in the format his power gives it to him).

But given that, we have two options. Either this timeline is the one in which Ilu attacked first, in which case it should have automatically shut down with Coil's death/unconsciousness, which clearly did not happen. Or, alternatively, we attacked first in the other timeline, in which case Coil should have noticed the attack and been paranoid or something for this attack, which he clearly wasn't.

Now, of course, there is a chance that Ilu was perfectly synchronized in both timelines, but that seems most likely to happen if Coil was in the same place in both timelines– otherwise, perfect synchronicity becomes less likely. In that case, though, you'd probably have to roll comparative initiatives to see which simulated version acts first. If they're in the same turn, I'd say it's fair to say that Ilu just moves fast enough that there's no noticeable time for Coil to react between getting knocked out in one simulation versus the other simulation, and thus there'd be no reaction.

TL;DR: Yes, Scry-and-Die is super effective against Coil, but he should have reacted slightly differently in the chapter itself unless a very particular set of circumstances happened that seems rather unusual for Coil.
 
Actually, now that I think about it, isn't that a pretty solid reason Cauldron is as capable as it is? Aside from Triumvirate, the Clairvoyant Doormaker Contessa combo is pretty much just a Scry-and-Die. A very effective precog for the Die part rather than a full party/high-level caster, but still.
yeah 100%

Clairvoyant finds a problem, the door maker portals them their, contessa removes them.

Easy Instant death combo if you so much as breath wrong on earth bet.
 
No, I know that Scry-and-Die is super effective. But unless Ilu was perfectly synchronized in both timelines, acting at exactly the same pace with not a single moment of delay, one simulated version would have attacked before the other simulated version (since Coil's power actually makes two simulations and then puppets him through the one that Coil chooses after seeing both in the format his power gives it to him).

But given that, we have two options. Either this timeline is the one in which Ilu attacked first, in which case it should have automatically shut down with Coil's death/unconsciousness, which clearly did not happen. Or, alternatively, we attacked first in the other timeline, in which case Coil should have noticed the attack and been paranoid or something for this attack, which he clearly wasn't.

Now, of course, there is a chance that Ilu was perfectly synchronized in both timelines, but that seems most likely to happen if Coil was in the same place in both timelines– otherwise, perfect synchronicity becomes less likely. In that case, though, you'd probably have to roll comparative initiatives to see which simulated version acts first. If they're in the same turn, I'd say it's fair to say that Ilu just moves fast enough that there's no noticeable time for Coil to react between getting knocked out in one simulation versus the other simulation, and thus there'd be no reaction.

TL;DR: Yes, Scry-and-Die is super effective against Coil, but he should have reacted slightly differently in the chapter itself unless a very particular set of circumstances happened that seems rather unusual for Coil.
But that's what I was trying to explain earlier, Coil is not really in two places at once, he is in the most advantageous place he could be if he got two tries at anything, effectively 5e advantage. beyond that, he's a normal un-augmented human with military training, so something like a level 1 fighter at best. he has somewhere around a 0% chance of spotting a stealth-ed Illuontar, so it doesn't matter how many tries he has.

Edit:
Just to clarify, because he is not really in two places at once, the moment we scryed him we got his real current location effectively circumventing his power altogether.
Edit2:
I think his power didn't warn him of our attack because it could only give him information if he could have possibly acquired it somehow and reacted in time to save himself. but it also may not have because it could not predict when we would scry him.
 
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TL;DR: Yes, Scry-and-Die is super effective against Coil, but he should have reacted slightly differently in the chapter itself unless a very particular set of circumstances happened that seems rather unusual for Coil.
Ohh! Yeah, there's a couple of things at play there, a very large dose of how Shard-Powers and Magic both do and don't interact, particularly in the realm of Thinker powers, and a bit of the specifics of Coil's power in particular. One thing I will say explicitly, is that I am going off the version where Coil isn't actually splitting timelines, they're just being simulated by his power/the shard, which effectively guides/psuedo-autopilotes him through the actual, 1 Real timeline. Like, I forget where the WOG was that mentioned it, but from a certain way the entirety of a particular simulation occurs the moment he 'splits', he just only gets to view it in 'real time', while his body is auto-piloted to the next moment the simulation collapses.

Edit:
But that's what I was trying to explain earlier, Coil is not really in two places at once, he is in the most advantageous place he could be if he got two tries at anything,
Yeah, what he said, basically.
 
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[X] Roll with it. Pretend you intended to do that the entire time if anyone else asks.
-[X] Cast Discern Location to make sure we got him instead of some duplicate (who knows what Parahuman Powers can do) to be safe

Wolfy, mind consolidating vote?
 
Ohh! Yeah, there's a couple of things at play there, a very large dose of how Shard-Powers and Magic both do and don't interact, particularly in the realm of Thinker powers, and a bit of the specifics of Coil's power in particular. One thing I will say explicitly, is that I am going off the version where Coil isn't actually splitting timelines, they're just being simulated by his power/the shard, which effectively guides/psuedo-autopilotes him through the actual, 1 Real timeline. Like, I forget where the WOG was that mentioned it, but from a certain way the entirety of a particular simulation occurs the moment he 'splits', he just only gets to view it in 'real time', while his body is auto-piloted to the next moment the simulation collapses.
Oh for sure, that's what I was working with earlier as well. But yeah, if it's just an interaction between Shard-Powers and Magic, that's fair enough, I was saying that the events depicted in the chapter imply pretty clearly that shard-powers are not capable of perfectly predicting us, or at least Coil's power isn't.

That's all I meant by this comment:
Wait. Uh. @Sckribe , did you take into account Coil's power? Or is this official confirmation that Coil's shard, at least, is unable to predict us? Because if it could have, it would have predicted Coil being there and us killing him and so we'd have attacked in slightly different circumstances.
 
shard-powers are not capable of perfectly predicting us, or at least Coil's power isn't.
I think its more Coil doesn't know he needs to make a decision at that point in time, because the way we did things give them exactly 0 indication something was wrong or prep time lol.

And so "be in the most advantageous position wrt 2 choices you can make" is irrelevant here (OCP style)
 
Oh for sure, that's what I was working with earlier as well. But yeah, if it's just an interaction between Shard-Powers and Magic, that's fair enough, I was saying that the events depicted in the chapter imply pretty clearly that shard-powers are not capable of perfectly predicting us, or at least Coil's power isn't.
Ahh. Then yeah, then the correct implications have gone through, or otherwise, yeah you've got an idea of things. OOC, at least, IC Iluontar doesn't have a clue what Coil's power was, or if he had one, and without prompting doesn't really care at all
 
I think its more Coil doesn't know he needs to make a decision at that point in time, because the way we did things give them exactly 0 indication something was wrong or prep time lol.

And so "be in the most advantageous position wrt 2 choices you can make" is irrelevant here (OCP style)
Nah, it really doesn't make sense that we'd coordinate with our other simulated self, completely on accident, so totally down to the second that Coil never even gets alarmed by his other self going down. Again, never was claiming his power would have saved him, Scry-And-Die works super well for him, just that this is proof we aren't perfectly predicted by Coil's power, which is informative... and also limits how useful he is to us, if we can't rely on him.
 
we aren't perfectly predicted by Coil's power, which is informative... and also limits how useful he is to us, if we can't rely on him.
Then vote for Rolling with it, so we don't waste spell slots and efforts on him?

[X] Roll with it. Pretend you intended to do that the entire time if anyone else asks.
-[X] Disintegrate the body and get rid of the costume as well. No evidence.
-[X] Cast Discern Location to make sure we got him instead of some duplicate (who knows what Parahuman Powers can do) to be safe
 
Is it a good idea to leave the guy dead? With all the failsafe and stuff he has?

Also gotta say, for a guy as smart and experienced as our mc even with amnesia, he does seem to mess up a lot when it comes to knocking people out.

Might as well call him Glory guy lol.
 
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With about an hour left, here's the current state of the voting;
Adhoc vote count started by Sckribe on Feb 3, 2024 at 9:14 PM, finished with 64 posts and 7 votes.

  • [X] Place the Bracelet of Mandatory Co-operation on the corpse's wrist, then use Limited Wish to cast Raise Dead to resurrect him. Then continue as you previously intended to before accidentally killing him
    [X] Place the Bracelet of Mandatory Co-operation on the corpse's wrist, continue as if Coil was still alive (teleport back to base?), then use Limited Wish to cast Raise Dead to resurrect him, continuing as previously planned afterwards.
    -[X] If he refuses to be revived, use Speak with Dead to retrieve information about his bank accounts and what you'd need to authorize things, then transform into him and pretend to be him for the moment.
    [X] Roll with it. Pretend you intended to do that the entire time if anyone else asks.
    [X] Roll with it. Pretend you intended to do that the entire time if anyone else asks.
    -[X] Disintegrate the body and get rid of the costume as well. No evidence.
    -[X] Cast Discern Location to make sure we got him instead of some duplicate (who knows what Parahuman Powers can do) to be safe

Hope this helps!
 
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