- Location
- U S of A
Don't think the tally program will count your vote with a space in between the brackets
anyway though - Dragon President? Dragon President. Yeah, I'm on board. Changing Vote.
[X] A Mapiya (Lightweight)
[X] Female
Wings of Freedom: A Temeraire Quest
- Thread starter inquisition
- Start date
- Fantasy Alt. History Historic
anyway though - Dragon President? Dragon President. Yeah, I'm on board. Changing Vote.
[X] A Mapiya (Lightweight)
[X] Female
Temeraire
Got to say I am somewhat torn. On the one hand Dragons. On the other… much as I like the books they were strong on character but pathetically weak on worldbuilding. Part of that was due to the first book being written as a stand-alone that was just 'Napoleonic War with Dragons' while the others had actual worldbuilding. But a large part was simple a lack of thought. Naomi Novik had an idea of what she wanted dragons to be and an idea of what she wanted the world to be and just squashed the two together with little regard to whether they fit. Plus inconsistencies in the detail, such as flight speed varying from 'fast sailing ship' to 'slow propeller plane' depending on what was plot convenient.
There is also the fact that 50 years post canon is 1860-ish. US civil war, assuming history is more or less on track. A time when gunnery is beginning to reach the point of making dragons military liabilities rather than assets.
But… Dragons.
Solid arguments though.
[X] A Mapiya (Lightweight)
[X] Female
Got to say I am somewhat torn. On the one hand Dragons. On the other… much as I like the books they were strong on character but pathetically weak on worldbuilding. Part of that was due to the first book being written as a stand-alone that was just 'Napoleonic War with Dragons' while the others had actual worldbuilding. But a large part was simple a lack of thought. Naomi Novik had an idea of what she wanted dragons to be and an idea of what she wanted the world to be and just squashed the two together with little regard to whether they fit. Plus inconsistencies in the detail, such as flight speed varying from 'fast sailing ship' to 'slow propeller plane' depending on what was plot convenient.
There is also the fact that 50 years post canon is 1860-ish. US civil war, assuming history is more or less on track. A time when gunnery is beginning to reach the point of making dragons military liabilities rather than assets.
But… Dragons.
Broken vote.
Solid arguments though.
[X] A Mapiya (Lightweight)
[X] Female
[X] A Mapiya (Lightweight)
[X] Female
[X] Female
[X] Pettystone
I like 'em big.
I like 'em big.
cokerpilot
Here comes the rain.
I am kind of curious about what the American civil war will even be about... America is vastly different than our original timeline. The Native tribes integrated much more peacefully and there has even been at least one native president. The slave trade is dead and gone at the claws and fires of the vengeful African dragon tribes. American society is also probably both larger and more widespread given that several of the Native tribes run a massive air transport and mail service that is supposed to be both affordable and readily available.
Icipall
Don't worry, we can fanfix that!
- Location
- Cold snow fields of Finland
@inquisition
How smart are dragons in this verse?
How smart are dragons in this verse?
- Location
- Spain
[X] Pettystone (Heavyweight)
[X] Female
[X] Female
inquisition
Not Affiliated With the Spanish Church
- Location
- Valkenheim
Depends on the dragon, but all of them are sentient. The least intelligent tend to be couriers, since they were bred for speed and little else, while dragons like the Celestials were bred to be advisors and scholars - there's at least one dragon who got top marks on the Chinese Imperial exams, and another who came up with the Pythagorean Theorem independently and then got herself elected to Parliament.
That said, Dragons are alien minds. Even the smartest of them tend to focus much more on immediate concerns than on the future. They tend to be bad at second order consequences. They are not natural tool users, even after growing up surrounded by humans. They are territorial and possessive. And critically they have little to no nurturing instinct. They don't teach or build without prompting.
Age is also a factor. Dragons hatch able to speak and reason. But they are still inexperienced noobs prone to foolishness.
All of which goes some way to explaining why humans and not dragons dominate the world.
inquisition
Not Affiliated With the Spanish Church
- Location
- Valkenheim
Some of that might be cultural though - the European dragons, with their purely military role, are very much like that, but Chinese, Incan, Japanese, and North American dragons seem to have a great deal more in common with human norms and ideas. Of course, the natural territoriality and possessiveness are still there - but it often manifests in different ways. The Inca, for example, have a decimated human population, so the dragons basically took over the government and now have their own "packs" of humans that they "own."
Why would being military prompt such a culture?
The European dragons are surrounded by tool users and long-term strategists.
As I recall the Incan dragons spent much of their time stealing humans from one another and settled their arguments with trial by combat. And the most prominent Incan dragon in the books was quite willing to betray her nation to follow the human she decided (against his wishes) was her partner. Long term planners they are not.
Age certainly matters. The grizzled old Chinese general was the least dragon-like dragon we see, with the second place being the instructor dragon in Scotland. However even those two are not exactly human-typical.
CuttleFish2.0
Friendly neighborhood cuttlefish
- Location
- Seattle, Washington.
[X] A Mapiya (Lightweight)
[X] Female
[X] Female
- Location
- United States
[X] A Steel Reaper (Large Middleweight)
[X] Female
[X] Female
Icipall
Don't worry, we can fanfix that!
- Location
- Cold snow fields of Finland
When you say sentient, I assume you mean sapient?
yannoshka
Thunda birb
- Location
- Smartarse cramschool
inquisition
Not Affiliated With the Spanish Church
- Location
- Valkenheim
It's more of a case of "war machine" being their only career path at first. They have little to no impact on anything above the tactical level, and their education and training reflects that. Dragons who study or go with other career paths do have a bit more variation in their abilities
Fair point. Though they're still shown as having a competent military apparatus despite being dragon-led, which itself requires long term planning, and I doubt Napoleon would tie himself to a nation that couldn't see five feet in front of its snout.
You're not wrong in the fact that they subscribe to blue and orange morality, and have radically different priorities - they act like I think cats would act if they could talk. But I do think that dragons allowed by culture or necessity to learn in a human manner do begin to show more human personality traits - noted exceptions being John Wampanoag, who owns a multinational business, Perscitia the Whiggish MP, and Temeraire's mom Qian.
Yes, very much so.
I'm at rehearsal at the moment, but I'll make the final tally later tonight. Seems pretty clear though. If one breed vote doesn't get a majority, I will have a runoff.